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Old 03-16-2005, 05:56 AM   #106
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While the Novak sensored system is not the most powerful nor robust (ESC is easily damaged, bad design) I've never seen a sensorless system that drove well, especially at low speeds. Are the sensorless systems making progress in this area? They're great for boats and planes, but I question whether sensorless is best for cars.
The newer generation of sensorless controllers from Schulze and other companies work quite well in cars, even at slow speeds. The only thing that still causes some problem is trying to crawl from a dead stop.... when do any of us do that anyway!! In my TC3 I can hardly tell that it is a brushless, except for the gobs of power and extended run time I have. The two setups I primarily run are the Schulze U-Force 75 with either a lehner basic 4200(about like a 10 turn) or a plettenberg shadow(more like a 7 or 8 turn). Slow speeds after you are moving are not a problem. I have also heard good things about the MGM COM Pro controllers and they are priced very well($150-$180). I will have mine in about 2 days so I will be able to compare it to the schulze. Combine the MGM and a Feigao 7S motor ($70) and you have a potent system that is not much more than a novak.
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Old 03-16-2005, 06:02 AM   #107
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What's funny to me is that ROAR can suddenly change the rules and approve brushless motors on a whim to run with brushed motors, but on the other hand they have to take their time and submit a rule change on brushed motors for 2006.

If they are going to make such a big change by allowing brushless in, they should immediately pull the rules restricting brushed motors and let them compete on a level playing field. That way the technology battle is fought out on the track, everyone makes the best motors using the best technology and whoever goes faster wins. Under this scenario they are hamstringing the brushed motors and forcing brushless systems down our throats.

While I believe brushless will be the future, I think manufacturers deserve a level playing field and they deserve more than overnight to develop a brushless system.

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Old 03-16-2005, 06:20 AM   #108
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There is no doubt that better brushed motors can be made outside the ROAR rules, but why not just put your efforts toward the future? The sooner you adapt the sooner you will be making race winning brushless motors. Certainly better typewritters could have been made in 1980, but why would one do so?
Hey Gordon, I can still buy a typewriter today in 2005! Motor manufacturers aren't upset about having to develop a brushless system, they are upset about the change being sprung on them overnight. For several years the rules have supressed the incentive for companies to develop brushless systems, now they are being told they gotta have one overnight. If you were a typewriter maker in the 80's, you didn't just shut down your factory and start making computers and word processor software, you kept selling typewriters while you developed new technology and entered both marketplaces and transitioned to better technology.

If manufacturers were told in January of 2005 that in January 2006 ROAR would allow all brushless motors to run along side brushed I don't think motor manufacturers would be upset like they are having it sprung on them overnight.

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Old 03-16-2005, 06:41 AM   #109
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Allow brushed motors to be designed with no restrictions inside the motor. Allow brushed motors to use Neo magnets, 5 or more segment rotors, no size limitations inside the motor and anything else we can find that will work. As long as it meets the ROAR guidelines for ".05" outside dimensions. This measure would keep the entire brushed motor industry competitive longer and allow these motors the same potential for advancement as brushless. Well, it will help. Brushless motors will still take over someday regardless but at least ROAR won't be killing an entire industry in one fell swoop!
If we went by this for brushless too many other systems would be legal for use (Hacker, Lehner, Plettenberg, Aveox, Feigao, Kontronik, etc).

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I built a motor in 7th grade. Whoever told you that a brushless motor was "Easier" to build is insane. The entire reason Novak had problems getting the system out ealier was finding somebody to wind the motors. The are wound backwards and are much more complicated.
Actually making a spnning can brushless is very easy. serveral places sell kits to make your own brushless. It is true that machine winding brushless motors isn't easy, but that can be fixed by better motor design. Novak't motor design makes it very hard.
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Old 03-16-2005, 07:58 AM   #110
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I've also heard guys say that brushless is cheaper because they don't need any maintenance and you don't have to buy new brushes and cut comms. While this is true, you are crazy if you think it will be cheaper. Now that the brushless floodgates are open, the brushless system you own today will be obsolete within a few months. If you thought the motor of the week game was bad before, it will pale in comparison. Now instead of buying a $30 stock motor every couple of months, it's going to be $300 dollars for the brushless system of the week. All of the major motor companies are going to develop and improve their systems as fast as possible and it will be like buying a computer, the day it hits your desktop, there is something faster and better on the market. And the way the ROAR rules read today there are no cost limitations for brushless, so get ready to ante up.

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Old 03-16-2005, 09:09 AM   #111
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Originally posted by racer-oZ
I've also heard guys say that brushless is cheaper because they don't need any maintenance and you don't have to buy new brushes and cut comms. While this is true, you are crazy if you think it will be cheaper. Now that the brushless floodgates are open, the brushless system you own today will be obsolete within a few months. If you thought the motor of the week game was bad before, it will pale in comparison. Now instead of buying a $30 stock motor every couple of months, it's going to be $300 dollars for the brushless system of the week. All of the major motor companies are going to develop and improve their systems as fast as possible and it will be like buying a computer, the day it hits your desktop, there is something faster and better on the market. And the way the ROAR rules read today there are no cost limitations for brushless, so get ready to ante up.

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Pandoras box has been open and you dont even see it.
How would all you car guys like to recieve a letter in the mail from Uncle Sam and the EPA saying you'll have to park your Fuel burning SUV, or import racer, or classic muscle car and convert it to electric. Oh! by the way! You have 2 weeks to do it.
If your a small car dealer or Auto repair garage or even a gas station you would all be out on the street because you wouldnt be able to compete against the auto industry giants who have cars in their lineup that are electric.
Eventually we will be driving electric cars but it will be a transition that everyone can adapt to with "time" not over night.

The hardcore guys have seen change in this hobby since day one and have accepted it along the way with some resistance. But ! the transition from the earliest form of racing to what we enjoy now has taking nearly 30 years to evolve. Not over night like this. We can accept it. We have no other choice but Not in a forcefull manor.

What I can see here also which angers me is that you all dont care about the businesses that will be affected, not just trinity which most of you dont care for but the small guys who have families to support. In a time and era where all our available jobs are sent over seas we need to take this into account aswell. For heavens sake atleast allow some time for preperation to change.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:14 AM   #112
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People have mentioned Hacker motors. Now there a guy at my local club that runs one with the Shultz controller and the packege works very well and is very very fast. However, there is something that i was told a while back that would make (the motor at least) ilegal with the rules that have generally been written for brushless.

I understand that the majority of Sensorless motors are wound "delta". Where as the rules are written that they must be "star" or "Y" as i have seen it written.

Is anyone able to confirm this, or know anyone that can.

Anyone that knows anything about 3 phase motors knows that Delta will always be more powerful.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:20 AM   #113
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See... I was one of those kids who started by modifying control line cars in the 70's... Although your anaology is good, it's apples and oranges.... This is still a hobby and we still play with toy cars... No one is telling you you now have to run a brushless, you can still plop your 6 turn mod into your car and spend your day cutting the comm.... Personally, I'm happy as a pig in sh!t.... Now to get Roar to allow narrow pan cars to run with the TC's.... Imagine... Brushless L3T or Pantoura running LiPo's.... Nitro's would be toast!!!!
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:38 AM   #114
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I agree that the brushless systems being allowed at the nats is screwed up but at the same time I'm looking foward to how they will do at a high level of competition. If brushless takes over I think we will have to look very hard into changing the class structure. Now we have mod, 19t, stock. With the ability to hack software and the lack of ability of local track to monitor this we have to change our thinking. This class will now become like nitro. You can have all the power you want but can enter a class based on ability. Pro, sportsman ect. Or what might happen is restrict the total voltage. Run six cell or four cell. This might make the battery resellers unhappy but might make for a nice seperation of skill levels while saving money on batts. Yeah a battery war will ensue but dont we have that already.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:42 AM   #115
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I still want to know where all this software hacking is coming from???? The motor can only go so fast and put out so much power.... If this was so true then why don't we have people hacking our current brushed ESC's??????
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:44 AM   #116
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vtl1180ny, BINGO! There is nothing about brushless that make's it easier to hack than the current ESCs.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:44 AM   #117
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You wanna let a 2 wheel direct drive car that weighs like 25 oz less run with the touring cars?? A properly setup 6 cell 1/10th pan car with a 19t motor would be faster than most sedans....one with an 8 turn would not even be close.


Are you kidding me?


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Old 03-16-2005, 09:45 AM   #118
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I think in this case this argument would be towards the power limited classes. Think of brushless stock. How easy it would be to play with the speedo to get that extra bit. Its kind of like restrictor plate racing but w/o any way to check then cheating would be rampant. So the term "stock" would no longer apply. I think it would be any brushless sytem and call it pro, sportsman, ect. , or just have a four cell class with an unlimited brushless system.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:46 AM   #119
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Pretty much right on.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:50 AM   #120
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So the motor winds make no difference in brushless? Wow! So why when I go to look for Hacker motors do they sell motors with winds from 2 to 30 (in 1 wind increments)?

I agree we should not be using the ESC to limit the speed and power for stock, that is why there is a stock brushless motor spec. You run the ESC wide open, with the stock brushless motor.
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