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Old 03-15-2005, 08:38 PM   #91
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Some people have decided to turn this into a brushed vs. brushless thread.....which its not.

The point here is, racers, both sponsored and non-sponsored have prepared for an event for months under one set of rules....now, the rules have changed DAYS before the event. I have spent a few thousand bucks to send my drivers to nats and equip them with the best possible equipment that was available and legal under the rules.....

Now, thats all for potentially for nothing....

How is my $95 max retail motor with inferior magnets supposed to compete with a motor governed by no price limits....a motor that has not even passed any techincal requirements other than the word of the company who made it....

We will see tomorrow how the systems run. I know Novak will be running their new prototype system.....and according to my sources, multiple Reedy drivers will be running their new system, which supposedly gives similar lap times, but with a whole extra minute of run time in 1/12th scale...

Under the old rules, if this was really true, I would be able to grab one from the hobby shop and run it....and really, I could of been prepared for it....but now, no access.....

Really, if you think about it.......ROAR should make the 3700 MAH batteries legal tomorrow...I mean, I know there is supposed to be this approval process, but who cares.....changed the rules once, change them again....

Why people think I or any of the other companies (except trinity) hate brushless is beyond me....I have one underdevelopment! I simply want there to be a fair playing field, which is what the rules were supposed to give us, but now they are not....

And while I realize 99% will not be effected by this, would of it REALLY of killed any of you 99% to require the motors be submitted? Would you of died over a few weeks of wait time to ensure the motors are legal and approved.....

I am sorry, but a few people on this thread are absolutely clueless....

Later EddieO
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Old 03-15-2005, 08:46 PM   #92
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And yes, IFMAR did legalize brushless.....and none of us whined, it was done MONTHS before their next big event and the products still have to be approved for use under IFMAR rules....

If ROAR would have done that, I would not even say a word, with the exception of asking them to open the rules up so brushed motors can explore new technology like neo mags, etc.....

With no rules being followed, its pure Chaos.....even on the club level. It will just turn into a money war....you go ahead and use your $250 novak brushless.....I will go get a custom one made, since there is no price limit....the rules are there to protect even YOU, the club racer...

Later EddieO
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Old 03-15-2005, 08:58 PM   #93
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I have a new rule for the race this week...have a drink with me on 3/17 for St. Patricks day?

Who's in
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Old 03-15-2005, 09:19 PM   #94
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Your gona make motor`s ?


Your gona need a team of electronic engineer`s & tons of mola for the manufacturing equipment just to build & sell um.....



Thats the whole point...

Garage motor companys & tuner`s will be unable to compete.


The real reason ?
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Old 03-15-2005, 09:20 PM   #95
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At one point in the ROAR rules, they very specifically spec the brushless system. They were obviously specing the Novak, but it was very specific. As I recall they also had price limits on the stuff.

Also, innocent question. If a brushless motor is some spec, let's say the ROAR spec stock brushless motor. How can hacking into the ESC make it faster? I'll kind of give you hacking the thermal cut-off, but what else could you change? Do you think the current ESC are limiting the motor power output?

Also, my understanding that it is quite easy (with the proper tool) to check the inductance of the brushless motors to make sure the winds have not been tampered with.

Cheating takes place (or attempts to) all the time, brushless will make it no easier to cheat.

One more little rant on Trinity, the thing that really pissed me off about the anti-brushless ad was how sneaky it was. It looked like an article from the magazine, very underhanded. And, yes, it will be so sweet to watch them eat thier words when they start selling brushless systems! It's fun to watch liars squirm, that why it's so entertaining to watch Bush.

Oh, and brushless motors are actually easier to make that a brushed motor. It is practically a solid state power plant. Simple. I know people who have made brushless motors in thier garage!
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Old 03-15-2005, 09:29 PM   #96
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EddieO, as part of that 99%, I agree with you. There should have been more notice and/or the rule change should not be in effect for this weekends nats.
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Old 03-15-2005, 09:52 PM   #97
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First off I have to agree that this late change is not a real good thing. Running it by the rules set several months ago would have been better.

As for programming changes, there never was a rule for this therefor changine the programming can't be illegal. If you want to avoid the temp cutoff, run a Schulze, forget about sensors entirely. You could also cut the two appropriate wires and twist them together (or tie one to +5V) and you would also defeat the thermal cutoff. Doing so would only be bad for yourself since the rotor will probably die if you do so. The major limitaion of a sensored brushless motor is the physical limitations of the motor itself. Which brings me to my next point. When brushed motors get approved, they don't have to approve each separate winding of that motor (please tell me if I am wrong). So a D6, is a D6, is a D6. Also, controllers dont have to be approved in any way. So IF novak does run a prototype motor that fits the dimension rules that are already approved, there really isn't anything that makes that motor illegal. it could be a ss5800 motor can and rotor with a different number of turns, just like a trinity or reedy racer could show up with a motor in a currently approved can that is wrapped slightly differently, but still legally. both motors that I can't buy, but both legal.

Again I agree that IFMAR should have handled this differently. They could have done worse, they could have opened it up to all brushless motors at which point the novak would have been the least of anyones concerns (hacker c40's, plettenberg extreme and shadow, lehner 15 and 19 series, kontronik twist series, Schulze controllers etc..).
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Old 03-15-2005, 09:58 PM   #98
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Probably way too far off topic but..

While the Novak sensored system is not the most powerful nor robust (ESC is easily damaged, bad design) I've never seen a sensorless system that drove well, especially at low speeds. Are the sensorless systems making progress in this area? They're great for boats and planes, but I question whether sensorless is best for cars.
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Old 03-15-2005, 10:15 PM   #99
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Eddie- Yeah, you got kinda screwed by the rule change, but god stop whining, I think everyone's heard enough already. I think the real question is will anyone be using a brushless system to win? I highly doubt it, only the team drivers at Reedy and Novak, no one else will, none of the brushless systems that qualify will be fast enough. Even an awsome brushless system from Fiego, Hacker, or Schulze wont be able to keep up since everyone is running lame ass Ni-mh batteries.


I personally hope that the Novak and Reedy systems destroy the brushed guys to demonstrate that brushless rocks. Everyone knows brushless is the way of the future, now it will finally be displayed. No one wants brushed motors around any more. Once some manufacturers see this they can start optimizing their cars for the systems, and for Li-po batteries as well. Did you know there is a guy on the RCCA boards who built a Pro4 with li-po's and a brushless system that smokes all the electric cars at his track and keeps up very well with nitros, wieghs in at around 2.5lbs (I cant remember exactally what it was, very, very light though), and he gets enormous run times! (at least 12 minutes)(http://forums.radiocontrolzone.com/s...d.php?t=169983). With good brushless speed controllers you can program basicaly all aspects of the powerband and such. You can set acceleration times, max rpm, timing, and tons of other stuff.

BTW- You can get a nice sensorless brushless system for about $250usd. A MGM 80A ESC ($165, weighs 38g) and a Fieago motor ($80-90, ). This system can provide over 550W (80A draw at 7.2v=550W, which is twice that of the Novak system!) of power at 7.2v. This system is not even close to being roar legal though.
Checkout www.starluckrc.com and www.rc-monster.com

/end rant/sorry for going off topic, but I felt like telling you guys about some of the cool brushless stuff I've seen

Gordon- From everything I've heard is that the new good German brushless systems are very smooth. Many of them are now avaliable with specific car software. The Schulze U-force (distirbingly expensive, are apparentally the best you can get and are amazing, but at over $300usd ), MGM has come out with a new 120A esc that is supposed to be very good and can handle enough amperage to do big motors that E-maxxes and 1/8th buggy conversion use. MGM also has a 80A esc that is supposed to be very good for 1/10th scale. Alot of the cogging people have expirenced is apparentally due to bad software, the Lehner Warrior ESC sold well and cogged badly, this is probably where alot of these claims come from. Also the type cells used, the number of cells used, the gearing and the weight of the car can effect the amount of cogging. Many guys just run a reciever pack and that gets rid of all the cogging.

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Old 03-15-2005, 10:35 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by GordonFreeman
At one point in the ROAR rules, they very specifically spec the brushless system. They were obviously specing the Novak, but it was very specific. As I recall they also had price limits on the stuff.

Also, innocent question. If a brushless motor is some spec, let's say the ROAR spec stock brushless motor. How can hacking into the ESC make it faster? I'll kind of give you hacking the thermal cut-off, but what else could you change? Do you think the current ESC are limiting the motor power output?

Also, my understanding that it is quite easy (with the proper tool) to check the inductance of the brushless motors to make sure the winds have not been tampered with.

Cheating takes place (or attempts to) all the time, brushless will make it no easier to cheat.

One more little rant on Trinity, the thing that really pissed me off about the anti-brushless ad was how sneaky it was. It looked like an article from the magazine, very underhanded. And, yes, it will be so sweet to watch them eat thier words when they start selling brushless systems! It's fun to watch liars squirm, that why it's so entertaining to watch Bush.

Oh, and brushless motors are actually easier to make that a brushed motor. It is practically a solid state power plant. Simple. I know people who have made brushless motors in thier garage!
I built a motor in 7th grade. Whoever told you that a brushless motor was "Easier" to build is insane. The entire reason Novak had problems getting the system out ealier was finding somebody to wind the motors. The are wound backwards and are much more complicated.

However sneaky the Trinity ad seemed it did bring up some very valid weaknesses of brushless. The do have their problems and when they do much more severe than brushed. Wait until you guys see what happens when moisture gets in there. AC current doesn't like that.

I'm all for brushless and what it can do for motors, but tuning a motor is part of the racing end. And while some people don't think you can "tweak" a brushless I can show you how to physically advance the timing if you'd like.
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Old 03-15-2005, 10:40 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by stormperson
I drove his car, trust me, that thing was ballistic all through the powerband
Hey Mark Strasnick does this mean you may be running mod 1/12 soon ?
I enjoy running stock with you last sunday...
too bad i could not make the main....after i qualified 4TH in the A-main. I neglected my own car to help a friend that was running two classes.
Good luck to You @ the Nats. I guess I'll have another chance then, if my luck goes well
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Old 03-15-2005, 10:50 PM   #102
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Yea, we all know the back plate on the Novaks moves, whooopdeedoo! Can you quantify your gain or loss in performance? Do you think Novak is setting the timing to be slow? Or are they setting the timing to work best with the sensored system, remember it is not like the sensorless where you have to manually set the performance.

Nobody told me it was simpler to build. I have been a mechanic, a machinist, a moldmaker and a mechanical engineer. Brushless motors are stupid simple.

Serious side note, I've been absolutely fascinated by the way these brushed/brushless discusions seem to be so personal. It's like Ford vs. Chevy, strange creatures these humans.
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:46 PM   #103
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Whining.......thats funny. I am simply stating my opinion and responding to remarks that directly or indirectly made at my opninion.....

And again, I must state, this has nothing to do with brushed vs brushless....

I would just like the rules to be followed and the playing field kept fair, neither are being done at the moment......and for some odd reason, some people seem to think thats OK.......

And brushed motors are stupid simply to make if you have the correct equipment....its not brain surgery.



Later EddieO
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:41 AM   #104
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Thumbs up BRUSHLESS **IS** THE VERY NEAR FUTURE... PERIOD!

I think most of us agree that there is No doubt that the advantages of Brushless Motors outweigh some potential "problems" other are trying to promote..... this is especially true for the 99% in the hobby who are the consumers and not paid or sponsored Drivers. In the end, more run time due to efficiency, less maintenance, and less cost in the long-run are what will prove this.

The magnets used in current Brushless Systems do have an advantage over Brushed Motors that are made to fall under ROAR specifications (and now probably also.... "limitations"). At the moment, the rules governing Brushed vs Brushless Motors will most likely remain the way they are for about another year. Here is a proposal written by Big Jim Greenemeyer (who I'm sure many of us respect in the RC industry) to ROAR President Rick Wilson regarding Brushless Motors and their legalization in Modified Class races which I hope will appease some of you who are concerned about the current restrictions on Brushed Motors:


To the ROAR Administrators:

It is commendable that ROAR has made rules for the brushless motors. I do believe that those rules will have far-reaching consequences to the r/c industry in general and the r/c car motor industry in particular. And I don't believe ROAR has put enough thought into those consequences.

First, you are allowing brushless motors to run head-to-head with brushed motors in ROAR competition. Nobody cares at the moment because brushless motors aren't competitive with brushed motors in all-out modified car racing. But one would have to have his head totally in the sand to not realize that eventually ALL r/c car motors will be brushless. It may not be next year or the year after but someday. And ROAR seems to be paving the way for the demise of brushed motors. I'm sure this makes Bob Novak really happy but it certainly doesn't make the rest of the r/c motor industry happy at all. We are the people who have supported ROAR all these many years way before Bob ever thought of making a motor.

If you made the brushless motors run in their own class against each other, nobody would care what technology you allowed them to use. But once you put them in with brushed motors in head-to-head competition, that's a whole different ball-game.

For years ROAR has tied our hands behind our backs saying that we had to use ferrite magnets, 3 segment rotors and made us motor designers stay limited to strict size restrictions.

First, let me say there are three ways to increase the power of a permanent magnet electric motor. One is to just make everything bigger. Barring that, the next best way is to increase the size of the rotor (or armature). And third, increase the strength of the magnetic fields (either permanent or generated). For years we have kept within the ROAR rules building motors that are stuck in the stone-age, technology-wise. It wasn't important because everybody was in the same boat.

Now along comes brushless technology for r/c cars and not only does ROAR allow those motors to be equal in size to our mandated brushed motors but you allow them to use one of the three ways of increasing power output that we (as brushed motor designers) ARE FORBIDDEN TO USE! I'm talking about the specifically-allowed Neodymium-Iron-Boron magnets better known as NIB's or Neo's in brushless motors. Also, I see there are no price limitations on ROAR certified brushless motors. Now we all aren't in that same boat!

Come on! Fair-is-fair! You have tied our hands for years and you are untying theirs!

I request that you take the following proposal under consideration.

Allow brushed motors to be designed with no restrictions inside the motor. Allow brushed motors to use Neo magnets, 5 or more segment rotors, no size limitations inside the motor and anything else we can find that will work. As long as it meets the ROAR guidelines for ".05" outside dimensions. This measure would keep the entire brushed motor industry competitive longer and allow these motors the same potential for advancement as brushless. Well, it will help. Brushless motors will still take over someday regardless but at least ROAR won't be killing an entire industry in one fell swoop!

I guarantee that I can make a brushed motor have more runtime, much less maintenance, more power than the current crop of brushed motors and use the same ESC's that all the racers have already and manufacture them for retail sale under the current ROAR price limits, IF ROAR gave us the above proposal in the form of a rule change. This would be better for the motor industry and for the racer. Nobody is the loser. Everybody wins.

Please consider my proposal.

Sincerely,

BIG JIM Greenemeyer




HERE IS RICK WILSON'S REPLY TO JIM'S PROPOSAL:



What you are saying is exactly what is being considered for modified brushed motors for 2006. Brushless can not be ignored. They are now IFMAR and EFRA legal. Your point is correct, given this we must be looking at revising modified brushed rules to continue to provide a level playing field.

I appreciate your input and will submit your suggestions as a rule change for 2006".

--Rick Wilson
ROAR Preisdent

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Old 03-16-2005, 02:08 AM   #105
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There is no doubt that better brushed motors can be made outside the ROAR rules, but why not just put your efforts toward the future? The sooner you adapt the sooner you will be making race winning brushless motors. Certainly better typewritters could have been made in 1980, but why would one do so?
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