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Old 03-15-2005, 06:13 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by ThePrfctGetaway
Are they allowing brushless to run with modified brushed motors? Or are they in their own seperate division...??
Yes. Brushless and brushed will race together.

The problem is that both motors, racing together, are allowed different specifications and standards for approval.

If manufacturer A shows up with a prototype brushless system that is available to one driver, they CAN use it. If manufacturer B shows up with a prototype brushed motor that is available to one driver, they CAN'T use it.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:14 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Hohwart
Yes. Brushless and brushed will race together.

The problem is that both motors, racing together, are allowed different specifications and standards for approval.

If manufacturer A shows up with a prototype brushless system that is available to one driver, they CAN use it. If manufacturer B shows up with a prototype brushed motor that is available to one driver, they CAN'T use it.
Hmmm, sound's kinda screwey to me...
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:16 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by ThePrfctGetaway
This new brushless rule doesn't really affect me, but I'll give my opinion anyways, even if nobody asked for it. So, they now allow brushless... and I'm seeing some people whine about it. Okay, so they released this rule a few days before a national event. Is it that big of a deal? (keep in mind, my views on this topic are very simplistic...) Unless I'm missing something. Are they allowing brushless to run with modified brushed motors? Or are they in their own seperate division...??
Ok what ROAR did was basically let guys racing in the modified class use Brushless motors. But the guys in that class that are racing Brushed motors also have many limitations placed on them....I guess you can call it a restrictor plate. Then ROAR goes and lets Brushless motors run in the same class with out these same limitations and you can say no restrictor plate. So to bring this to a real car or NASCAR type term it would be like making one group of guys race with restrictor plates while letting a few choice others that have access to running with out a restrictor plate while all racing at the same time for the same championship. Its a bad call by ROAR is all it is. All motors should have the same basic rules to follow.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:19 PM   #79
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So because Trinity made a negative add a group of people that have worked hard to help racers out can be attacked. I guess I do not live and die by the products that I use.

I have met Eddie at the Nats in Portland...he was working hard any ANYONE's motor that asked. Was very helpful in giving information to all racers at the nats. I just hate to see someone attacked because they tune motors....and not for trinity even.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:24 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin K
Ok what ROAR did was basically let guys racing in the modified class use Brushless motors. But the guys in that class that are racing Brushed motors also have many limitations placed on them....I guess you can call it a restrictor plate. Then ROAR goes and lets Brushless motors run in the same class with out these same limitations and you can say no restrictor plate. So to bring this to a real car or NASCAR type term it would be like making one group of guys race with restrictor plates while letter a few choice others that have access to running with out a restrictor plate while all racing at the same time for the same championship. Its a bad call by ROAR is all it is. All motors should have the same basic rules to follow.
Uh huh... If it was like it's own seperate division I could understand, but it's not. I understand the limitations on the brushed motors, but brushless I don't see how you can possibly limit them? And depends, what kind of mod motors are we talking about? If theres a select few people running like 8 turns for example, some brushless motors can't even compete with a 10 turn. So then it would be a disadvantage towards the brushless guy. If the motors were kind of set towards a limit, like the brushless lets say is equivilent to a 10T... then the brushed guys should have to run a 10T. And nothing lower. So it would be somewhat equal. If it's like an open mod, you'll get people running like 8 turns, 7 turns, who knows, maybe even 6 turns.. Unfair to brushless guys, sure, the brushless guys runtime will be longer and won't drag as much, the 6, 7, and 8 turn motors are obviously going to whip the brushless guy.. Lets say a guy with a brushless races a guy with a 6 turn brushed motor. (example) Lets say they run a perfect match. Like they run flawless and consistent. 5 minute heat. Who do you think will win? Brushed obviously because it can go faster than the brushless. Sure, the brushless may have it easier, but some of the brushed guys can go faster than a brushless. Which in my eyes, is a disadvantage... But remember, this is my 2Ę and I have no knowledge with this argument really... So if you think my views are completely off, don't take it out on me that bad.. I have simplistic views.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:37 PM   #81
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ThePrfctGetaway.....The issue is not with the current over the counter Brushless systems. Itís with the ones that are not sold over the counter that do exist and that are very much on pace with a 8 or 7 turn motor. This is the reason that this sudden rule change has brought up this debate. Brushless motors are allowed to use rare earth magnets which are not allowed in brushed motors....these rare earth magnets have many advantages. You are right with the current over the counter Brushless system they cant compete with a 10t brushed motor but these companies have systems that are faster then 10t's and only a choice few have access to them. This is where the problem is. It was just a bad call on ROAR's end of things. For the average racer or basher none of this matters at all but for the few that race this is a big deal.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:38 PM   #82
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By the way, call me Rich. I see what you're getting at. Those prototype brushless motors that we as the normal public cannot purchase?? Ahhhhh I see now...
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:40 PM   #83
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Here are my thoughts

Brushless at big races gives no advantage. Do you really care if you go through a set of brushes at the nationals? No.

There are price limits on brushed, but I read nothing about brushless? That doesn't make much sense to me since you cap out a mod motor at $95 and now you can run $300 brushless motors? I don't understand that one.

I would really be surprised by a brushless that can beat a brushed on the track, I haven't seen it yet.

Also remember, brushless may not put stress on brushes, but you can blow an expensive controller pretty easily. So it's not really any advantage as of yet.

I'll be at the Carpet Nats in a few days to see what's up.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:44 PM   #84
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Rich.....yeah thatís the point these are motors that not everyone can get. But Brushed motors have to be available and so many have to be sold and there are plenty of other rules they need to follow that Brushless now do not. I donít think that many of the guys speaking out against the ROAR rule allowing brushless motors donít like them. Itís more that they need to follow the same type of rules as Brushed motors and not be given a free pass so to speak.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:49 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by DerekB
Also remember, brushless may not put stress on brushes, but you can blow an expensive controller pretty easily. So it's not really any advantage as of yet.
How many NON-Novak BL speedies have you seen blow up? and what brands?

The only ones i have seen go smoke are Novaks, and we all know how easily their products destroy themselves... Ever wonder why they have such a great customer service system and so many people are aware of it? Cause so many people have used it.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:52 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin K
Rich.....yeah thatís the point these are motors that not everyone can get. But Brushed motors have to be available and so many have to be sold and there are plenty of other rules they need to follow that Brushless now do not. I donít think that many of the guys speaking out against the ROAR rule allowing brushless motors donít like them. Itís more that they need to follow the same type of rules as Brushed motors and not be given a free pass so to speak.
I see what you're getting at....
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Old 03-15-2005, 07:25 PM   #87
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Let's go back to the first page here...

Ifmar was first to allow brushless into racing, in January.... Roar decided to follow and changed the rules to allow brushless use in the US of A.....

Now... The rules are directed at all forms of RC racing, not just the mighty on road guys....

Yea, the nat's are in a few days... I don't think that guys who are sponsored by LRP, Reedy, Novak are going to run out and get a Hacker or Schulze right now since those are the only 2 companies who make brushless capable of beating a 6 turn brushed....

Driving an RC with a brushless is very different from driving a brushed motor car.... Do you really want to switch what you know, 2 days before a big event????

Now, when do we get stock brushless....

Think it's time to sell my dyno....

BTW, Rich you are sooooooo confused....
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Old 03-15-2005, 07:37 PM   #88
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Just a few random thoughts from a very average racer. Brushless and lipo's(or some variation there of) are absolutely the future of electric racing. With them, electric performance will hit levels we have never seen before in power, speed,and runtime. I think a lot of the ground lost to nitro will be regained.
I do understand the frustration of the builders and manufacturers to be hit with a ruling like this a few days before a national event. It will be interesting to see what shows up and who wins at the carpet nats(I'm betting it will still be brushed). That said, except for the A and maybe B mains, it doesn't affect anybody else to any great degree because it's really about the driving. No matter what I run(or 99.9% of the rest of you) the Brian Kinwalds of the world will beat me with a stock motor. If you believe otherwise, you either are in the A main at a nationals or you have your head in the sand.
I will not be at the carpet nats but I will be at the mod off road nats in July, running my over the counter brushless systems that I'm very happy to see will be legal. There, in the dirt, I doubt brushed or brushless will make a difference, it will be who drives Chris Marcy's creative track design the best. I just want to see how far down the list I fit in.
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Old 03-15-2005, 07:42 PM   #89
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Great Intent ROAR....

SIMPLY the worst execution. Who is the Ringmaster in the ROAR circus.

So whats next... Li Poly batteries 2 days before the next nats ?
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Old 03-15-2005, 08:01 PM   #90
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Well since there is a very good argument for both sides here, im just going to state my piece rather briefly.

I am going to be racing at the nats, in the modified classes, now granted i am by no means a top dog, but i feel as though i just got screwed. I saw a brushless being tested at a clubrace at chambers last sunday, and it was wicked fast, with tons of runtime. There is no way that i will have that much motor in my 12th scale without dumping. And there is no way to argue it if you saw the car/motor system i'm refering to.

Now i like the idea of brushless, but it should be seperate from mod, and we SHOULD HAVE HAD MORE NOTICE! The first day of practice, and i just found out now, every day i checked the race discusions just to see what happening, and not a peep about brushless.

ROAR- why no notice?
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