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Old 03-15-2005, 04:20 PM   #46
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If brushed and brushless are going to compete together, they should be required to follow the same basic rules that have always governed electric motor legality.
Yes... I think we should follow the same technology that was developed in the 1800's.... This is the way to go, let's not piss off people, especially the one's who enjoy our money....
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:21 PM   #47
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Brushless motors are a lot more efficient and the biggest performance difference will really show in Mod 1:12 scale. It will give at least 1 minute more of run time. I heard that Novak has a brushless motor equivalent to an 8 turn that is in development. In time the brushless esc's will get smaller and we'll all be racing brushless motors. Bottomline, it'll be more cost effective to run brushless in the long run.

I totally agree with Rick about the putting brushless motors through the same evaluation process as brushed motors. Obviously someone's got some pull at ROAR.

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Old 03-15-2005, 04:22 PM   #48
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The problem is that ROAR is allowing brushless motors to be used without going through the same legalization process as brushed motors. If they racn inseparate classes it would not be an issue. But if they race together, they should go through the same process as other motors used in he same class.
I don't think there is much to worry about here. The novak ss5800 will not keep up with a 10 turn, and the rules pretty much rule out everybody elses stuff.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:23 PM   #49
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Originally posted by Turbo Joe
Bonus!

So you get to make your car faster by just pushing buttons? Imagine that. It would be faster, more reliable and (probably) cheaper, with less maintenance.

Sounds like a great deal to me.
Not pushing a few buttons, having an engineer with a laptop plugged into you car to change the whole "mapping" of the speed control, similar to a Formula 1 team.

It's interesting that the guys that didn't like brushed motors because the were too complicated and time consuming to tune are pushing for brushless. If you only knew.

Also, instead of risking damaging a $40 - $60 motor due to overheating running it on the edge for better performance, you are now risking a $250 speed control.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:25 PM   #50
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Originally posted by vtl1180ny
Yes... I think we should follow the same technology that was developed in the 1800's.... This is the way to go, let's not piss off people, especially the one's who enjoy our money....
right on!

ROAR made a good decision here!!

All the professional "motor tuners" are shaking in their pants.

Now, ROAR should keep the momentum going and make all those professional "battery matchers" shake in their pants too!!
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:28 PM   #51
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I am not going to sit here an argue with anyone.....it seems a few people know what I am talking about, while others are off in their own little world about how things work.......

And the commericially available rule does NOT apply to speed controls, it applies to the motors......the reason I said the systems should be available is that making just the motor available would be pointless if they did not have a capable controller to run it....

And the commercially available rule has always been followed under the rules.......hence why you did not see any trinity guys running their cobalts last year at nats, even though the prototype exsisted....and why companies last year hurried to get their motors out and approved before the race happened...

And to those that think tuners will go away because of brushless.....yer nuts. People will find ways to make the motors faster and perform better, it will just take people adapting to the system and figuring out the little tricks to get the most out of the motor.....sure there won't be spring or brushes to play with, but as we are all guys who like to fiddle with things, ways will be found to squeeze out a little more power....


And lastly, its not a fuss over brushless......it's a fuss over the rules not being followed.......as a member of ROAR, I would expect the rules to be followed and not be modified on a whim a few days before a national event. I spend thousands of dollars to send my guys to these races.....and to get an easter egg like this right before the event is crap....think about it, you spend ALL year preparing for an event under a set of rules you have to follow, yet 2 days before the event the rules are changed that can potentially put you at a serious disadvantage.....really, what would of been the harm in requiring the the brushless motors to go through the same hoops as the brushed motors have for years....I can't see where the harm would be.....


Later EddieO
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:28 PM   #52
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Gary, could you elaborate, please. Maybe give a first hand example (system used included) to help people better understand.

On the whole, I just don't get this software argument. Are you trying to limit the motor's performance? Like for a stock/19T class? Then I completely get the concerns. But unless the software is supposed to limit top RPM or acceleration, why does it matter? ROAR/IFMAR are not currently specing controller software requirements, so how is it possible to cheat then. Right now brushless is being infused into the mod class, which has no limits on such things. And for stock/19T, why limit it by software? The motor architechure (windings, magnets, etc.) still matters. Just use higher wind BL motors, like we currently do for brushed. I'm pretty sure that is the difference between Novak's SS5800 and SS4300. The two systems use the same controller. The speed difference is in the motor.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:39 PM   #53
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You are 100% right about the brushed motor rules being old........people have been saying that for years.....

So now, if you are gonna open the rules up and allow brusheless to use rare earth mags and the like.......why not allow brushed motors the same benefits.....

It would not be hard to make a brushed motor that competes in efficiency and longevity if we were allowed to use rare earth magnets, big arms with 5 or 7 segments....

And I am sorry, this stick it to the motor company attitude needs to end....these are real world companies with hard working employees....to alter the rules on a whim, with no consideration to them, is a slap in the face to them and their families they support....

It makes me laugh though how people seem to think this is fine to change the rules on a whim days before nationals.....you want it to be fair and cheap, yet now....it's possible people are gonna have to drop $250+ additional this weekend to stay among the top....


And whoever thinks Novak is gonna be running their current units is nuts.....it's been well known they have a new Super Mod unit......Charlie was running it at the Novak race and it was FAST......very fast.....you can't order one from Tower Hobbies though.......and thats the point.

I can replicate any brushed motor trinity, orion, or reedy will be running.......good luck doing that with a prototype brushless motor.....

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Old 03-15-2005, 04:42 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by vtl1180ny
Yes... I think we should follow the same technology that was developed in the 1800's.... This is the way to go, let's not piss off people, especially the one's who enjoy our money....
The issue is that all motors forms should follow the same rules, not whether one technology is better than the other.

Motor price limits and guaranteed product availibilty and equality are GOOD for the consumer. And are not required of brushless motors.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:44 PM   #55
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Originally posted by Jack Smash

Also, instead of risking damaging a $40 - $60 motor due to overheating running it on the edge for better performance, you are now risking a $250 speed control.
Have you ever used a BL setup?

Brushless motors do not kill themselves the same way a brushed motor does.

We have been runing them for close to 2 years, against normal brushed mod motors, if you try an agressive speedie profile, or too high gearing the speedie will thermal and slow down just liek a normal brushed speedie. The benefit comes in no motors burning up, and also appears that the reliability of Brushless speedies is much better. BTW i am talking about proper current tech speedies from the german manufatures specifically Hacker and Schultze, not Novak and LRP who are utilising old technology that the existing manufacturers gave up on a decade ago.

Its true the only people who keep trying to demean BL are those who currently make money out of brushed motors or their flunkies.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:45 PM   #56
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Originally posted by GordonFreeman
It's great to see this technology finally validated. But all of the Novak brushless systems (5800 and 4300) are slower than 19T spec (I am totally pro-brushless, but facts are facts). Hopefully the santioning bodies will start to allow the brushless systems to compete in classes other than "mod/open". Any 19T can beat any Novak Brushless.

We (our club) just started a 19T/4300 class and it is very clear that the 4300 is much slower than a 19T.

Since the Novak race in Milwaukee showed the 5800 was about 1 lap down from a 19T and only a bit faster that stock, I would suggest the 5800 should be allowed in 19T and the stock brushless should be allowed in conventional stock.

It's really an issue that the stock brushless runs the same run after run after run (slower than the fastest stock) and you need to do a bunch of work to get a conventional stock brushed motor to run fast. The "old timers" with thier lathes and Turbo 35s will lose thier advantage when brushless is accepted. Writting on stone eventually died, carbs eventually died, typewriters eventually died.

Trinity's bullying doesn't help either. With all the obsolete tooling they have, no wonder the resistance to brushless. I would be shaking in my shoes if I was CEO of Trinity. Duh...how do I wind wires on the outside...duh...I just laugh my ass off at the board of directors of Trinity.

It's been one hell-of-a-battle, but we'll beat Trinity in the end. Trinity will adapt or die.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:45 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by 403forbidden
right on!

ROAR made a good decision here!!

All the professional "motor tuners" are shaking in their pants.

Now, ROAR should keep the momentum going and make all those professional "battery matchers" shake in their pants too!!
WOW......I donít think all the professional motor tuners are shaking in their pants its more like shaking their fist or heads at ROAR. All motors should be held to the same rules. If youíre going to let Brushless motors use rare earth magnets then let brush motors use them too. Whatís good for one needs to be good for the other if they are in the same class.

And the ESC with the brushless motors plays more of an effect then any of us average RC racer understands. If you can reprogram a brushless ESC you can get an instant advantage over the next guy who doesnít. So for anyone who says that Brushless will level any thing is flat out wrong. Sure the upside to Brushless is great.....no com to cut...longer run time....less maintenance. But the dark side where ESC's can be hacked and make someone have an unfair advantage erases most of the plus sides in my book.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:46 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by EddieO

Think about it, companies like microsoft, EA Games, etc spend MILLIONS of dollars in preventing their software from being hacked.....and it happens EVERY day by some 17 year old kid in his bedroom......if you don't think someone will end up cracking the software and making it undetectable.....yer nuts.

Just ask microsoft....they came up with some media format years back, with heavy encryption that was supposed to NOT be crackable and if it was, it would NOT play.....but before it was even released to the public, someone made a crack called f*&#you.exe that killed protection....

Do you REALLY think Bob Novak is gonna spend that kinda of money on a little toy car ESC?? The geek on the other end has to spend pretty much nothing but his own time.....

Later EddieO
Only real difference is that Microsoft has litterally millions upon MILLIONS of users, thus making the base for attackers/crackers/hackers that much bigger. Im not saying it wont happen, but its a lot less likely that a crack will be out for the progams as quickly as a popular program, as most of the people out there do their hacking for prestige and as much as i dont like to say it, a program for an RC car isnt in that high of a demand, unless of course the hacker owns that hardware, which brings me back to my first point.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:48 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by EddieO


And to those that think tuners will go away because of brushless.....yer nuts. People will find ways to make the motors faster and perform better, it will just take people adapting to the system and figuring out the little tricks to get the most out of the motor.....sure there won't be spring or brushes to play with, but as we are all guys who like to fiddle with things, ways will be found to squeeze out a little more power....

Later EddieO
I would be surprise if we will still have as much around once brushless is in full swing as this babies can last for years, I have been running brushless close to a year now and is just awesome.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:54 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Besercoe
Have you ever used a BL setup?

Brushless motors do not kill themselves the same way a brushed motor does.
That is exactly my point! The speedo is going to take the abuse.

Quote:
Originally posted by Besercoe
We have been runing them for close to 2 years, against normal brushed mod motors, if you try an agressive speedie profile, or too high gearing the speedie will thermal and slow down just liek a normal brushed speedie. The benefit comes in no motors burning up, and also appears that the reliability of Brushless speedies is much better.
This was true but as they are used more and more in competiton, people will run them closer and closer to the edge. The factory teams will eliminate the thermal protection on their units for competition, what do they care if it only lasts a few runs.

This is going to open up a whole new can of worms that unless it is properly regulated,(which there are so many variables, it will probably be near impossible or very expensive to tech these new systems, plus ROAR cant come up with consistent ruling on anything lately) the cost of racing is going to escallate.
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