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Old 03-15-2005, 09:41 AM   #16
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http://www.roarracing.com/rules/index.htm
NEW BRUSHLESS MOTOR RULE, 6 March, 2005. For 2005 electric modified classes you may run either brushed modified motors or brushless modified motors as defined in the rulebook and defined in this document. The 10 turn minimum specification of brush type modifieds in Rule 8.7.4.2 have been deleted.
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Old 03-15-2005, 09:47 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by vtl1180ny
Some of you need to get it into your head that this is a HOBBY!!! This is a profession for very few, just like taking nudie pictures of your GF or Wife isn't going to get you a job at Playboy!!!!! The initial outlay may be a few dollars more but you're spending less in the long run.... Every form of racing is the same.... You can't compete with factory sponsored drivers... You think you can go out without factory backing and place in the top 10 at Daytona??? You'd be lucky to qualify....

I say it's about time this HOBBY is catching up!!!!

Let the factory guys race themselves and promote the company they work for and the rest of us will be having a blast and spending less money!!!!
At this weekends California Carpet Champs, about half of the A-main was Factory drivers and half were not. The difference between being at the front and the being at the back was driving talent, not equipment. You could buy the same stuff off the shelf to compete with theses guys (except Matt's JRXS but they will be out soon). Third qualifier Lex Tyler pulled his motors out of a retail package.

I hope that brushless doesn't change this but I am afraid it will. The trick to making brushless fast isn't in something mechanical that can be adjusted like a Brushed Motor, it is in the programming of the little black box that is the speed control.
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Old 03-15-2005, 10:04 AM   #18
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Yes and there are brushless companies out there who are putting USB ports on their controllers.... Kinda like plugging a Power Commander into your YZF-R1.... I love that fact that I can plug my laptop into my motorcycles and tune them.... Hell of a lot easier than having to disassemble it to change jets... Same thing.....

99% of us will never race the factory guys....
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Old 03-15-2005, 10:59 AM   #19
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rick h. - if bl gains significant market share, what impact do you see it having on the numerous small market motor builders/resellers?
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:05 AM   #20
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We'll start seeing some brushless motors coming out that are a lot faster than what we currently have.. We've already seen what Novak has up their sleeve at SoCal raceway, and it's nothing slow.
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:15 AM   #21
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you got that right, Randy... at the Novak Race in January, Charlie S. had a prototype "mod" brushless motor in his car for a few rounds.... wicked fast, is the only description i could think of! spoolup was immediate...
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedxl
You guys just dont get it! The gap between factory and non factory just got bigger. Even though its easier to maintain or service, the chances of ever competing against a factory guy went from a slight chance to none. I understand a few of you like these motors because you do this for fun. But if you decide to get serious and or race for the competition do you honestly think the off the shelf system is going to be the same the team guys will have. Their programing will be different and they will have internals that you wont be able to buy.
There is cheating going on right now that no one can detect because current races have no "real trained" techs to catch this stuff. You think you have problems now running against factory guys or any one with an inside hook up! Guess what you just wished for your own demise.

Boy nitro is sure going to grow real fast! Nostrodaomus said so!
Actually, that gap you mentioned will become more manageable. "Mechanical Enhancements" are much more difficult to spot ...as you mentioned. Spotting Electronic "enhancements" will be much easier assuming a standard of testing is adopted. Imagine .... the top finishers go to tech after the race, the tech plugs a computer to the cars electronics. the program reads the internal settings of the system to make sure it complies with race rules and VOILA !! You win or you're DQ'd. That simple. Very little possibility of cheating and the only way the factory drivers are any better than us normals is because they drive WAYYYYYY better.

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Old 03-15-2005, 12:19 PM   #23
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Default Re: 5800 v 19T

Quote:
Originally posted by Ducati-Rider
Guys

A 5800 will smoke a 19T IMHO.
It sure will.

Someone ran one at SoCal in 19T last week.
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:22 PM   #24
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The first statement listed that the motors would be allowed at the carpet nats. The date of that event is very close and I would think that could be kinda quick notice before a national event. I am not attending but I would think unless people had much prior notice that it would be something that could cause some issues.

So from what you are seeing on the coast are the days of the brushed motors numbered?

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Old 03-15-2005, 12:24 PM   #25
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Since we've allowed the 4300 stock brushless to compete against other brush motors, stock and 19T, I've come to a few conclusions:

1. Brushless has bag loads of torque at low speed, off the corners.
2. But they kind of seem to top out quickly and the brushed motors keep pulling.
3. There is no way a 4300 (and I doubt a 5800 either) can keep up with a good 19T on the track. Just look up the Novak race results, you will be surprised, and of course, compare the same driver. On average the 5800 was about 1 lap short of the 19T and only a little bit faster than stock.

One of the reasons people think brushless is so fast is because they just shoot out of corners, but what people seem to not notice is that the brushed motors will catch it down the straight.

Hopefully these newer programmable ESCs will be able to give it a more ďnormalĒ power band.

I donít agree with the battery wars coming. Can somebody explain that to me in scientific terms? If Iím only using 1500 mAh during a 5-minute race, how can it become a battery war? My understanding is that when you run mod, batteries become less of an issue and that when you run stock batteries are an issue. I think due in part the efficiency of the motors, stock being low and mod being more efficient. Well brushless is even more efficient.

As far as battery voltage, say a 1.18 vs a 1.15, canít I just gear the car with the 1.15 higher, say 1.18/1.15=1.026 or 2.6% higher? Itíll load the motor down a bit more, pull more amps, make more power and only run 8 minutes instead of 9. But luckily we only run 5 minutes. Iím just kind of guessing here, Iíd like to see some hard math and good solid theory here. I dont think it will be any more of a battery war than it is now.

Somebody must have done this experiment, scientifically, take a brushless system and dyno it with a whole bunch of different batteries and see what you get.
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:32 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by GordonFreeman

As far as battery voltage, say a 1.18 vs a 1.15, canít I just gear the car with the 1.15 higher, say 1.18/1.15=1.026 or 2.6% higher? Itíll load the motor down a bit more, pull more amps, make more power and only run 8 minutes instead of 9. But luckily we only run 5 minutes. Iím just kind of guessing here, Iíd like to see some hard math and good solid theory here. I dont think it will be any more of a battery war than it is now.
Gearing a motor down doesnt help a motor make more power, it gives you less power off the corner but a higher speed at the end of the straight. Gearing for stock and 19 turn motors should be determined by lap times and no other method except in the rare isntance that the motor gets so hot it falls off at the end of the run. Mod motors are geared, first to make run time, second for lap time, third to make sure the motor doesnt fall of at the end of the run.

I agree that I don't think there will be any more of a battery war than there is now. When ever horspower is limited on the motor end, there will always be an advantage to get the most out of your power source.
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:43 PM   #27
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Our current batteries are 1.2 volts, PERIOD..... They are mass produced and the matchers go to work and match the batteries as close as they possibly can.... After about 5-10 runs they are no longer matched as closely as they once were anyway.... How can we possibly have a battery war??? Are little men in white coats going to make special cells for the few???? Plus the difference between a 1.18 cell and a 1.15 cell is negated at the first crash.... The guys who get the best of the bunch batteries are still going to get them, same goes for motors and everything else....

The way I see it with the new cells, 3600's and up, and brushless hitting the market we'll be getting much more driving time....
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:48 PM   #28
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As a pretty experienced SS4300 user...I'll add my observations.

If it's "topping out" early, just gear it taller.

They do have great torque, but they don't have a bunch more than a good stocker, IMO.

What they do have is great "throttle response" (I'm a big car guy..). The first 50% of the throttle makes 80% of the power...the last 50% doesn't do a bunch more. It's like a diesel mabuchi.

I've been running one with 5 cells (gotta do what you gotta do...) for a couple months. I gear it up to between 5.2X and 5.8X FDR and I can keep up pretty well at SoCal.

I have to be on it quite a bit and I have a fan on the speedo...but it works really well. It does really use up the runtime. I don't have great batteries or anything, but they come back without a lot of runtime left after 4 minutes. I could make 5 no sweat, but 6 would be pushing it for some of my packs.

I've tried actually timing a full pack...but I'm easily distractable.

There are some stock guys that will kill me on the straight, but I think the reliabilty and consistency is a good trade-off. I've been getting in so many laps of practice that guys are whining that my slower motor is unfair, because it's "too consistent".

I started doing this stuff about the time the SS came out. I just don't get the whole brushed thing. I tried them -- yeah, they're a little faster, but they SUCK. I'd rather be driving and having fun than sitting in the pits working on some circa-1924 piece of crap motor.

They have better, nicer and more reliable stuff out there that actually makes this fun to do. I'm not taking the EFI off my race car and I'm not going to race without my brushless. If I get booted, I'll just race at the two other local tracks that DO allow them.
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:56 PM   #29
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Yup, it's cheaper, easier, less work and it runs the same all the time. Like I said, the old-timers who have mastered tuning conventional brushed motors are resisting this big time (and Trinity).

I just love how all I do is feed it batteries. I think I ran 500 laps one practice day! WooHoo!
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:57 PM   #30
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Oh yeah...I have two 4300 setups. If anyone wants to try one here in SoCal (or at SoCal)...I have an extra.

I think the only way to really know how fast they are (or aren't) is to run one and see who pulls away from you and who doesn't.

I'm an old street racer. You can't tell jack about the other guy just because you pulled on him. You can only tell what he has if you're at WOT and he's going away.
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