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Old 03-18-2005, 05:33 PM   #271
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Like touring cars in early 90's back in the day when it was all about off road 10 scale pan
Pan cars are still 100 times better than TC's....
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Old 03-18-2005, 06:45 PM   #272
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Originally posted by vtl1180ny
Pan cars are still 100 times better than TC's....
Yes we know. Every thread I have seen, you always advocate how pan is godsend and TC is crap.
However, the great thing about this hobby is how people like different things.
Almost everybody I have met that preffered Pan over TC, the main reason for the dislike was setup and maintanence.
Two things of which I love about the hobby, regardless of the class.
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Old 03-18-2005, 09:20 PM   #273
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Originally posted by CypressMidWest
JKA: If you're at a National, that's hardly true. I've watched Mike Reedy build TRINITY motors for average Joes at races before. .......
Thats fine... if you are at a national or are priveledged enough to run at a local track that one of these fine motor tuners frequents.

Fact is... the majortiy of racers will never meet these fine gentlemen.

Its a moot point though, originally purposed to imply that the Factory drivers will always have certain things that regular racers don't... in addition to talent of course.
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Old 03-21-2005, 09:35 AM   #274
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So... I'm comming in late on this... but how is it that ROAR has allowed a motor to be run that does not meet even their own requirements for distribution? Apparently Jon Orr one 12th scale with a Sphere brushless system with a Reedy Neo One motor... but neither controler nor motor are ready for distribution yet.

Even in the recent rules adendum it stated that they had to be 300 ready at disturtibuters...

But then this is NOT the first time ROAR allowed equipment that was not ROAR legal to be run at a National event. If I'm not mistaken Trinity ran some GP cells at a National event a few years back before they were ever ROAR aproved...

Meanwhile... ROAR has time and time again shown a propencity to change the rules and/or disgregard their own rules on very short notice... Personaly I am surprized they have gotten away with it so often... I guess no one's ever cared enough to start a law suit, cause it would seem to be fairly be easy to win a law suit given that ROAR seem to have little regard for their own rules.

(meanwhile don't paint me as a brushless basher... I love brushless... I just don't understand how ROAR can continulely change or allow their own ruiles to be disregarded so frequently at National level events.)
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Old 03-21-2005, 07:03 PM   #275
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The approval of brushless for open mod is a cataclysmic step in the worng direction for r/c.

Brushless motors are great, there advantages are well documented.

But they Absolutly must remain in there own class. Even in there own class it's extremly unfair because of there nature.

someones brushless system will always be better, Lrp now, maybe novak again, maybe tekin comes along and so on. The point is you are going to have to keep buying these new brushless systems to keep up with the jones's.

Then theres the damage it does to the independent motor manufactures. Most of whom can't afford to develop there own brushless motor systems.

It hurts the industry as a whole. It's the primary reason I will boycott roar events, the very body that runs the industry have deceided to blantenly hurt there industry. WHY????

It also makes my 100+ doller speed control, 50+ doller mod motors worthless???

leaving me to spend 200+ dollers on brushless systems, in which there will always be one better then the next. LRP, novak, tekin, orion, trinity, who knows, but little guys like fantom and others suffer.

allowing brushless in open mod is equilivant to having buggies run with Trucks, it's just plain dumb.

how do we fix this???
ROAR has slammed into the ground.
let them die.
Let the new NORRCA body take over and see if things can get better.

NORRCA seems like they will actually listen to there members, there rules were made by members, for the members.

Last edited by TCR; 03-21-2005 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 03-21-2005, 07:25 PM   #276
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Originally posted by TCR

NORRCA seems like they will actually listen to there members, there rules were made by members, for the members.
Thats amusing, Surely any body has a submission put to it by their members, the arguement in your post is that rules should be determined by the manufacturers and resellers. to keep the little man alive.

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Old 03-21-2005, 07:29 PM   #277
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Last I checked, a lot of the companies are members.....and have been part of it for years...

Later EddieO
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Old 03-21-2005, 07:37 PM   #278
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Originally posted by TCR
someones brushless system will always be better, Lrp now, maybe novak again, maybe tekin comes along and so on. The point is you are going to have to keep buying these new brushless systems to keep up with the jones's.
TCR, I'm not arguing whether Brushless should be in it's own class. The jury is still out on that... but, I wanted to point out that you say someone will always be coming out with a better system/motor etc. Are you saying that the Reedy/Trinity/Orion new motors that come out ever 3 months are any different? Ti, V2, D5, D6, Cobalt, flat wire, etc etc. There's a mod motor of the month now days!! And they aren't all the same. For the most part, they are getting better and better. This is true with every aspect of r/c racing and racing in general. I drag raced in heads-up classes for years, and if you think r/c is bad, you should try class racing where there's a new head every 3 months, new nitrous sytem every 6 months and new blower or turbo just as often!! Not only that, they keep changing the rules from year to year to allow the cars to be "safer", but somehow or other the rules usually allow components that make the cars faster!! We're talking $15K to $60K motors and $20K to $150K rolling chassis' that become outdated in 1-2 years.

Our strive to make our cars faster will always push the development on new technology. I can tell you this- like it or not, LiPoly is coming. That means all your $80 battery packs will be worthless because even with a stock motor a LiPo battery will smoke a NiMH because of the extremely low IRs. The development of cut-offs and smart regulators along with smart chargers and on-board electronics to make the batteries safe for the typical r/c racer is already underway and in production. Right now there are companies doing field testing and fine tuning the batteries for introduction to r/c racing. You might hate this, but the fact is that combined with the control they have over brushless motors it will put the playing field at a much more even level for racing. Lipo's don't have the variance of cell quality like NiMH and NiCD chemistries do. That means your stock brushless motor and Jeff Cuff's motor and batteries will probably be quite even. Unfortunately, Jeff will still smoke me and probably you too..LOL

All I'm trying to say is can you take an original RC10 buggy and beat someone equivalent in driving skills as you running a BK2? No. Not even if you tuned on it for weeks. The newer technology sells because it works. If what you said is true, then why didn't brushless motored cars win in every race and all of them place better than the brushed motors?
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Old 03-21-2005, 07:37 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally posted by EddieO
Last I checked, a lot of the companies are members.....and have been part of it for years...

Later EddieO
Is the company a member or the person owning the company a member?

For every company owner member there surely is a hundred odd racer members?

What is the total ROAR member base?
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Old 03-21-2005, 07:46 PM   #280
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I think it can be either way, but I am not sure....you would have to look it up.

Regardless though....their interests should be given just as much weight as anyone elses.....

Later EddieO
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Old 03-21-2005, 07:51 PM   #281
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I think you are blowing the whole motor of the month thing out of proportion....

Reedy, has produced 4 modified motors in like 5 years.....

Orion, was pretty staple with their Core series for a while, then went to the V2, which has been a staple for over a year now....and from my understanding, they are not coming out with anything new soon in the modified motor arena....


Trinity, is usually about 1 new motor a year.....

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Old 03-21-2005, 07:55 PM   #282
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Originally posted by EddieO
I think it can be either way, but I am not sure....you would have to look it up.

Regardless though....their interests should be given just as much weight as anyone elses.....

Later EddieO
I agree their interests should be respected,but wouldnt the total sum of all the small tuners be like 100 members, where the sum of the registered racers be in the thousands?

Therefore the sway the small tuners would hold would be minimal.
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Old 03-21-2005, 08:00 PM   #283
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Sorry Eddie- maybe I was a little over zealous. A couple new mod motors per year would be more accurate, but it still supports my point.

Don't get me wrong, as the owner of Team Brood it may hurt your business. I'm not neccessarily pro or con Brushless, just stating the obvious.
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Old 03-21-2005, 08:12 PM   #284
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soviet
It's not the "brushed/old school" guys that are the problem, hell...they are the guys that MAKE the R/C scene what it is, a scene with alot of really great folks from many interesting backgrounds.

It's the fact that ROAR allows manufacturers vote on whats approved or not, the fact that tons of folks for a few years now have been trying to back the technology and ROAR and it's voting board (40% Trinity) have consistantly blocked brushless acceptance at every turn.

ROAR allows the manufacturers to determine the route of the hobby, thus giving companies the means to control how much WE need to spend.

THAT fact alone is the source of my anger. NORRCA really, and I mean really needs to actively attempt to compete with ROAR and bring a new breath of fresh air to this hobby. A new attitude and new rules with a new focus could really help the hobby.

ROAR isn't trying hard enough. Yet I'm a member now and was years ago, because they ARE the sanctioning body for nearly ALL racing in the United States.

It's a catch 22.

P.S. - My first RC car was a used Tamiya Hornet with Kyosho Javelin oil shocks. I think thats old school enough.
Soviet - dude, you have NO idea. ROAR has NO manufacturer on the ExComm and, in fact, NO MANU has even SUBMITTED any BL or 19T motor for certification. . .that's really the central problem - there are NO approved motors but people were clamoring for BL and 19T classes. Read the first page or two of THIS thread - people were celebrating.

But because NOBODY (Novak, Orion, Trinity, Reedy, NOBODY) will submit a 19T or BL motor, EVERY motor EVERY system has to be an exception and when an exception that people don't like is made, people get upset.

I agree - a rule was not upheld. The system should have been one that was commercially available.

But let's lay this right where it belongs. . .

ROAR (and Norrca) have been making exceptions for YEARS. I've seen people running entire CARS that are/were not available and when any cameras came near - the towel went over the car. Commercially available? Heck no - that car doesn't even EXIST. . .it was all hand-machined and hand-made prototype. (Saw that happen at 2002 Norrca, btw.)

So now you get upset because another exception was made to allow LRP and Novak to run prototype BL systems.

You're right - it was not kosher and I don't think it should have been done.

But do you REALLY think that ROAR (or ANYONE) could get the manufacturers together to agree on ANYTHING (including who supplies the COFFEE for the meeting. . .)?

Come down off your planet, Soviet. . . come back to OURS. . .
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Old 03-21-2005, 08:20 PM   #285
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Quote:
Originally posted by TCR
The approval of brushless for open mod is a cataclysmic step in the worng direction for r/c.


Y'all were happy about it a while ago - and it's not something isolated. ROAR is following IFMAR's lead, as is EFRA. . .

Quote:
how do we fix this???
ROAR has slammed into the ground.
let them die.
Let the new NORRCA body take over and see if things can get better.

NORRCA seems like they will actually listen to there members, there rules were made by members, for the members.
Not really - look at their structure. NO committees, they have 6 people that run Norrca and one person who has final say.

Rules weren't made by members, they were made by:

Don Risner
Jimmy Babcock
Larry Mccaa
Dewayne Perry
Eric Anderson
Brian Mccal

That's a council of 6 people - hardly a rules committee that takes input from a lot of people.

On the other hand, ROAR has separate committees for nearly every type of racing - Fuel On-Road and Off-Road, Electric Oval, On-Road, Offroad, etc.

You want to go Norrca? Cool - been there and done that. Look at their rules - Spektrum radios aren't allowed for (no changeable frequency/channel. . .); no repeat concours winners? I've seen THAT one go by the wayside, personally (little hole supposed to be punched. . .not). 1,2,3 cars held in Tech after A-Main? Didn't happen in 2002. . .

But you think that they're better - cool. Give Don my regards. Make sure to take your ROAR card, you'll get a discount.
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