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Old 03-16-2005, 02:40 PM   #166
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Originally posted by 403forbidden
"cost control" is a BS argument

Sponsored drivers treat their motors like consumables because they can get so many on a whim. They also have access to a motor tuning guru who will insure that the motor runs to it's fullest potential despite lowering it's longevity greatly.

The lowly unsponsored driver has no access to these things unless he spends hundreds/thousands of dollars.

So arguing that the new brushless rules are bad because it doesn't mention cost control is total BS.
1. So you can make a good argument why brushed motors should have a price limit and brushless motors shouldn't? Please elaborate.

2. If you believe sponsored drivers get special equipment now, do you truly believe that sponsored driver's brushless motors/controllers will not be special?
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Old 03-16-2005, 02:55 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Hohwart
WOW! You guys just don't undertand do you?? ROAR didn't change the rules two days ago!

Brushless motors have been legal since the beginning of the month. This means ROAR legal brushless motors can be used in ROAR sanctioned races as of that date.

The problem is no brushless motor manufacturer has submitted a motor for approval. This means it is not legal to use - PERIOD.

Nobody would care if the submitted motor was approved two days before the race. What is bothersome is that ROAR is ignoring their own rules.
Damn Rick, how many time do you and Eddie need to say the same thing before these guys get the point?
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Old 03-16-2005, 02:55 PM   #168
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I know this is an on-road board but normally all the motor in the world doesn't win races.
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Old 03-16-2005, 02:56 PM   #169
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On road isn't like off road, a lot of times, motor can win races.
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Old 03-16-2005, 02:56 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Hohwart
1. So you can make a good argument why brushed motors should have a price limit and brushless motors shouldn't? Please elaborate.

2. If you believe sponsored drivers get special equipment now, do you truly believe that sponsored driver's brushless motors/controllers will not be special?
Can I stick my nose in? lol

1. Brushless motor SYSTEMS should have a price limit. Quick Rough calculations of Brushed motor $ limit along with MSRP on top of the line ESCs would put a similar price on brushless SYSTEMS of about $350? Yes? Of course for Pro level racing I see no need for these sort of $ limitations. But that gets into a whole new argument of restructuring classes based upon driver as well as equipment. A whole different can o' worms.

2. Sponsored drivers should get special equipment. They just shouldn't be allow to run in Stock class! lol Thats the whole different can o' worms again!
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Old 03-16-2005, 03:00 PM   #171
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The Novak 5800 is legal.... Plus with all the magic speed controls out there it's gonna win!!!!!

Does anyone really think that someone who wasn't already in contention to win, won't because of a brushless motor....
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Old 03-16-2005, 03:04 PM   #172
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Damn Rick, how many time do you and Eddie need to say the same thing before these guys get the point?
First they would need to be on the same foundation of argument. Then it would be more convincing.

Rick said, "Roar didn't change the rules 2 days ago."
Eddie argued that the part of the issue was all of the money lost while preparing for this race only to realize there was a change 2 days before the event that would leave them at a potential disadvantage.


I'm inclined to agree with Rick, though at first I was doubting the validity of these complaints given the source and perceived conflicts of interest. Yes I judged! lol

What I would REALLY like to know (I may have missed it) is whether Rick feels Brushed motors should be afforded the same lax rules currently applied to Brushless or if the more strict rules currently applied to Brushed should be enforce for BL as well.

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Old 03-16-2005, 03:05 PM   #173
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SFAIK, the rotors are the same. The winds are in the can.
That's why I said stator, not rotor Maybe I wasn't clear but I meant the winds.
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Old 03-16-2005, 03:06 PM   #174
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Wow, what a massive thread in just 2 days!

Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Hohwart

Just go back to post 12 of this thread. It is the one that sparked the whole debate in the first place. FYI, the poster is the LRP race team manager. I think he has a pretty good idea what the team will attempt to use.
@Rick: I don't want to get involved in any ROAR-related discussions, I don't have the knowledge about the federation itself and will certainly leave such discussions to you US-guys.
As you know, we developed our brushless system for quite a while. It's finally ready, works great and is competitive in my opinion. Therefore, after we got short notice that it's going to be allowed for the ROAR Carpet-Nats, we made sure that it was available to be used at this race.

Guess there's nothing wrong with that and I'm sure you guys will agree to that, more then that I really don't want to be involved here...
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Old 03-16-2005, 03:13 PM   #175
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They both have the same point though, brushless is being allowed to use rare earth magnets and not have a price cap, and not be available. Novak WILL have their new system and having seen it run in person, yes, it's just as if not faster than most brushed motors. Like Ediie, I have no problem with BL. I personally can't wait until it's the norm. But if they get to have lax rules, they needed to allow the brushed guys to build brushed motors under the same guidlines.
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Old 03-16-2005, 03:24 PM   #176
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i find it interesting how many people that are involved/members of roar are distancing themselves from roar as some sort of alien-third party entity. roar leadership and regional directors are elected by popular vote. excomm (i believe) is selected by this group. the decisions being made today are, by association, those of the majority of the active roar members.

don't agree with these decisions you can do one of three things: nothing, whine/complain (on the internet), get involved and try to make some changes.

the most constructive thing we could do at this point would be to open our perspective beyond this event and decide what is a fair and equitable solution for all parties (organizations, manufacturers, retailers, consumers) going forward.
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Old 03-16-2005, 03:40 PM   #177
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burito - you guys are doing what you are allowed to do. There is nothing wrong with that. We would do the same thing

My main problem is the issue of submission for approval. It is not an issue of brushless versus brushed. If a brushed motor was not yet submitted and allowed to race I would be equally upset with ROAR.

This is a ROAR race using ROAR rules - follow them. It is an issue of respect for the manufacturers and racers who follow all the rules so that racing can be conducted as fairly as possible.

The specifications for brushless are also an important issue but don't really relate to this event.
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Old 03-16-2005, 04:03 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Hohwart
Brushless motors have been legal since the beginning of the month. This means ROAR legal brushless motors can be used in ROAR sanctioned races as of that date.
The ROAR update is dated 2/2, so its been over a month now

Well, there seems to be a solution right in the ROAR rules for the carpet nats.

Since I can't find a llist of appoved brushless motors on the website, someone should protest the moment a car with one comes off the track after a qualifier. For not meeting rules:

8.4.1.1 (Motor)
8.4.1.2
8.4.3.2 (Approval)
8.7.5.4.f (Availability)


Or you could wait until after a main! After all, if you can't beat them on the track, beat them in the tech shed.

I'm hoping an approved system is available by the time the mod offroad nats roll around.

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Old 03-16-2005, 04:17 PM   #179
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Rick and I are arguing the same thing....

The rules were updated a while back, we all know that.....

I prepared my guys under the notion that no system had been submitted for approval to be concerned with.....

What ROAR has done, just a couple of days before the event is allow the brushless motors to be exempted from approval process....we had no idea on this until it was pointed out just days before the event...

Rick is arguing other points also, which I agree with...

And as for us voting for ROAR members.....I can tell you, without a doubt, the system sucks. I got my Revup a day after the ballot had to be in....I was considering running, but did not get my revup until after the nominations closed.....I have not got my current revup...while others have...

Like 200 people voted in the election....out of like 10,000 members...


What's funny, is that I asked Dawn Sanchez why the GP3700 batteries were not given a similar exemption to the rules....here response "they were not submitted for approval in time as required by the rules".....

Here is the rule AS posted in the update on the ROAR website for the brushless rules......the approval process itself is supposed to be done by an outside lab...

A minimum of two thousand (2000) brushless motors must be available at the time of approval. A minimum of three hundred (300) brushless motors must have been sold to at least three (3) distributors or hobby shops or OEM’s at the time of submittal. The manufacturer has to provide an address of a hobby shop or the like, that any driver who wishes to obtain these motors at the time of the approval can do so. No hybrid (mixing of parts from approved brushless motors) allowed.


ROAR could of waited until Oval nats, or just after that, which would of given over two months of lead time for the companies to get their products approved and legal under the rules.....

Later EddieO
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Old 03-16-2005, 04:20 PM   #180
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So, wait...I missed the part were ROAR says the super secret prototype monster brushless is legal?
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