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Old 03-16-2005, 01:08 PM   #151
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Approving Brushless is not the issue in my opinion. I have no issue with allowing Brushless. The issue is 2 days prior to a major event that Motor Companies have spent money in preperation for by testing different configuration of motors etc. have been slapped in the face.


They allowed a motor that is not available and has no price limit and also has basically no limitations. Why cant ROAR put a Retail Price that you cant go over like they have on Brushed Motors? Its not that hard, last time I checked you hit the back space button and retype it in.

EddieO, and Rick sound like they are not against Brushless systems and infact support it. The issue is this is a Major race that Brushed motors were made for and tested and now they throw this in the works.

Just my $.02.
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:11 PM   #152
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Gordon, I think you need to go read the ruling on the ROAR website......

RIGHT IN THE NEW BRUSHLESS RULES, it flat out says the motor has to be approved and commercially available.....

ROAR for some reason has chosen to ignore both of these....

At least know the public facts before you attempt to present an arguement....

How can you see an exemption to the rules coming, when its never been done like this before...especially when the NEW rules they posted said the motors needed to be approved and available....I saw it a week ago and said no big deal, nothing is approved or out that I need to worry about.....but then they get the exemption.


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Old 03-16-2005, 01:19 PM   #153
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Well-since Randy let the cat out of the bag-I suppose I am not doing any worse-but Gordon Freeman-you stated are they going to come out with a brushless prototype for the Nats to run with a 7t brushed motor?? Well-according to the prototype one I saw run last weekend and listened to the driver talking to Novak about it on the phone-YES-its clearly as fast as a 7t brushes motor and guess what-pull for 5 or 8-minutes and it wont slow down nor are you nearly as likely to dump.

I am all for brushless becoming legal for ROAR competition in modified-but I agree that how it was so quickly aproved was not too cool on ROAR-but little they do in the electric arena is popular or good.
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:23 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by razzo
You completely missed my point.. Not even in same zipcode close.
Dude...I quoted you. If I missed your point...then you missed your point also.

You can't "hack" the speedo to make a 4300 faster than a 4300. It's in the winds, just like a brushed motor.

I put a fan on my speedo so I could gear it taller without "thermaling" (I only run 5 cells)...did I "hack" it?
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:25 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by GordonFreeman
Sure you can rewind a 4300 motor, but it will fail the inductance test at tech and you will be publicly flogged as a cheater!

You could also take the 5800 stator and put it in a 4300 can, fail, same ambarrasment.
SFAIK, the rotors are the same. The winds are in the can.
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:30 PM   #156
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Not to sway this debate too far, but....

I never really understood the "commercially available" and similar rules when applied to pro level modified racing. I always felt the most healthy way to encourage advancements in technology would be to allow prototype products (across the board) in modified racing. There would still need to be a foundation of rules maintaining the direction of product developement within the class, but any technologies exploited within those legal frames should be allowed. I'm not referring specifically to the current debate as I'm fully aware of the "preferential" treatment, or more appropriately the lax limitations on brushless with the rulings made for this weekends event. But generally speaking shouldn't mod racing be at the forefront of technology in RC and shouldn't the rules promote technological progress? To me its almost as absurd as having the pros use control tires.

In Stock/sportsman, I understand such rules.
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:30 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by futureal
I have to go with Eddie, Rick, et al. on this. There's no excuse for allowing prototype motors to compete directly with other motors that don't enjoy the same benefit. There's no excuse for changing the rules before a major event with no advance warning. There's no excuse for this type of "reactionary rulemaking."
Yeah...if they don't allow other "protoype" motors...then I agree with that.

I just have a hard time believing that every part in all those pro motors is available at your local Hobby People. I mean, they're "approved" and all, but it's not like it's all really "commercially available"
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:34 PM   #158
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Ok how about this. You have a brushless and brushed with equal power, now add this TRACTION CONTROL. Again with my very, very limited knowledge of brushless it seem very possible for a sensored system to do this. How would you test this or could you. From my limited exp. with F1 didn't they decide to allow it because they had no way to check for it 100%. Yeah the team could spend millions on hiding it and the governing body could spend millions on trying to find it. Any of the F1 fans chime in on this.
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:35 PM   #159
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The brushless rules have been talked about for a long time now and I'm glad to see that they're finally legal. Just before Nats is kind of a bad deal but at least the performance of the brushless motors (even the hotter winds) is similar to brushed motors today. Next year would have been an entirely different story.

Brushless is here and has been here for quite a bit. Once they get the speed controls a little smaller and more efficient, all bets are off.

I've run against the "hot" Novak motor and it is very fast but so is a brushed motor. We both finished very close in the main and neither of us dumped (mod 12th). The guy running the brushless put a brushed motor in after the main and ran the same lap times.

Even though I'm NOT a "top driver" I can still see that it will take a perfect setup and driver to win a National event. You're going to see the same names at the top (or at least the ones that show up).
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:36 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Joe
I just have a hard time believing that every part in all those pro motors is available at your local Hobby People.
Having Oscar Jansen (and other respected motor gurus) available to specifically hand tune your motors is rarely available for anyone outside of the elite. lol
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:46 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by razzo
You completely missed my point.. Not even in same zipcode close.
I'm comparing 4300s to other 4300s. I'm sure if you wanted, someone cam make you a BL that'll work with Novak ESC that's 3 turns (according to some on this thread, this should be easy, since it's brainless to make BL motor) and smoke a 4300. Isn't 4300 suppose to similar to 'stock'? so if you got BL 'stock' class, motors are suppose to be similar in performance. What if Racer Z hacks his software in ESC, so his ESC isn't cutting out at high temp, or letting it run to what ever RPM? and for off-road, he decides to progam in a traction control program. And how are you going to tech it? I can hack my current ESC for brushed stock motor all I want, and it's not going to make me go any faster. THAT was my point... geesh.

So, you're telling me that I can get this magic speedo to make my monster stock perform like a QM??? Cool.... I want one... I'll rule!!!!! Same thing!!!! You cannot make a Novak 4300 motor any faster, it's all in the motor.... I have a castle creations Mamba.... I chose to get the 6800kv motor... If I wanted to go faster I'd get the 8000Kv motor... There's no magic program in there.... Brushless work with solid state switching the magnets on and off instead of brushes... That's the difference....

DAMN!!!! Please know what you are talking about....

Yes... Roar changed the rules 2 days before a big race... But there are big races in every class all year long....
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:51 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally posted by tomdav
Ok how about this. You have a brushless and brushed with equal power, now add this TRACTION CONTROL. Again with my very, very limited knowledge of brushless it seem very possible for a sensored system to do this. How would you test this or could you. From my limited exp. with F1 didn't they decide to allow it because they had no way to check for it 100%. Yeah the team could spend millions on hiding it and the governing body could spend millions on trying to find it. Any of the F1 fans chime in on this.
For true "traction control", you need wheel speed. That's easy to tech.

For half-assed TC, you can use some sort of "delta RPM" function...but with a very light full-time 4WD vehicle on slicks and high-bite asphalt...I don't know that that would make a difference. You'd also need some pretty good information (datalogging) to discern nominal deltas.

Besides, I don't see many RC cars leaving tracks from wheelspin leaving corners. Off road, maybe...LOL
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:53 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by vtl1180ny
But there are big races in every class all year long....
No kidding...LOL...there's a "World's" or "Championship" every week somewhere.

It's like all the awards shows on TV.
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Old 03-16-2005, 02:03 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Joe
No kidding...LOL...there's a "World's" or "Championship" every week somewhere.

It's like all the awards shows on TV.
WOW! You guys just don't undertand do you?? ROAR didn't change the rules two days ago!

Brushless motors have been legal since the beginning of the month. This means ROAR legal brushless motors can be used in ROAR sanctioned races as of that date.

The problem is no brushless motor manufacturer has submitted a motor for approval. This means it is not legal to use - PERIOD.

Nobody would care if the submitted motor was approved two days before the race. What is bothersome is that ROAR is ignoring their own rules.
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Old 03-16-2005, 02:23 PM   #165
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"cost control" is a BS argument

Sponsored drivers treat their motors like consumables because they can get so many on a whim. They also have access to a motor tuning guru who will insure that the motor runs to it's fullest potential despite lowering it's longevity greatly.

The lowly unsponsored driver has no access to these things unless he spends hundreds/thousands of dollars.

So arguing that the new brushless rules are bad because it doesn't mention cost control is total BS.
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