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Old 03-16-2005, 12:02 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally posted by EddieO
I was fully aware ROAR intended to make brushless legal for use in the modified classes in 2005.....

What I was NOT aware of.....was that motors would have no price limits, would not have to be approved, nor would they need to be commericially available by some exemption a week before nationals....

LOL...that's really good for you...because if I heard about it and you didn't...that would be a really bad thing for you.

The last couple Novak motors I bought were 70-75 bucks apiece...they were 4300 motors, but the 5800 is the same price. I think retail is around a 100-120? What's the limit for a mod?
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Old 03-16-2005, 12:04 PM   #137
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JKA....I should not have to offset any costs...

And the point being, if ROAR is going to do this once, what is really stopping them from doing it again...

Would you find it fun to show up to your regionals, a race dominated in attendance by local guys to find out ROAR suddenly changed the battery rules and you could use GP3700 batteries?

The rules are in place to protect everyone, from the club racer to the major race team.....not to provide an equal playing field, but a fair one...

These rules have been in place since the late 80's when AE showed up at offroad worlds with an oddball type rim and tire (2.2 inch), which was legal under ifmar, but not under ROAR....none of the other teams saw the loop hole....AE dominated the event.....

Thats why you see handout tires now and requirements on approvals for things like motors, batteries, and bodies, along with rules saying they need to be available......it's to provide us all with a fair race....

Because, without rules like these, RC would become an even bigger money war than it already is.......these rules help keep it in check the best they can.....

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Old 03-16-2005, 12:07 PM   #138
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It used to be $95, but I believe they may of raised it....

However, the motors that may be used this weekend will NOT be the 5800.....they will be the prototype novak and reedy/lrp....neither of which are even near production versions....you can't put a price tag on a prototype....


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Old 03-16-2005, 12:07 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Joe
That's nonsense.

A 4300 has more winds than a 5800 (11 vs. 7 I believe).

They use the SAME speedo as a 5800. The software is the SAME.

You can swap them back and forth.

You can set the ESC to the "limited" profiles (3 or 4) and the 4300 will not hit the limiter. (24000 rpm)

You can still only get what the batteries and winds will give you. You just get it without all the arcing, maintenance or cost.
You completely missed my point.. Not even in same zipcode close.
I'm comparing 4300s to other 4300s. I'm sure if you wanted, someone cam make you a BL that'll work with Novak ESC that's 3 turns (according to some on this thread, this should be easy, since it's brainless to make BL motor) and smoke a 4300. Isn't 4300 suppose to similar to 'stock'? so if you got BL 'stock' class, motors are suppose to be similar in performance. What if Racer Z hacks his software in ESC, so his ESC isn't cutting out at high temp, or letting it run to what ever RPM? and for off-road, he decides to progam in a traction control program. And how are you going to tech it? I can hack my current ESC for brushed stock motor all I want, and it's not going to make me go any faster. THAT was my point... geesh.
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Old 03-16-2005, 12:21 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by EddieO
JKA....I should not have to offset any costs...
No... you shouldn't. However, stating that you've spent x number of dollars on this race as a measure of how these changes affect you financially is misleading unless you carve out the portion of your expense not adversly affected by the changes.

I'm not arguing against the core of what you are saying. I'm saying you guys are blowing this out of proportion and basing many complaints on pure speculation which is coming across like whining.

Big Jim's comments posted above are a constructive way of approaching this issue. Many others here are not... and sound more like, "The sky is falling!"

How do you want to be perceived?
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Old 03-16-2005, 12:31 PM   #141
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I'll take being percieved as a guy who abides by the rules and stands up to enforce them to keep the hobby I enjoy fair for everyone.....

If that makes me a bad guy, then so be it.....

How you see it being blown out of proportion that ROAR is completely going against its own rules is beyond me....whats the point of having them if they not going to be followed?

Do you remember the whole Sanyo 3600 fiasco at Worlds? IFMAR did the right, though controversial thing by NOT allowing them at the race......the reason, they were NOT approved under the guidelines and even when given a chance, sanyo could NOT provide enough to all the racers to keep it fair.....

And Jim's opinion can be changed fairly easy....he has not been a ROAR member for years nor does he support a race team, he has no idea how this can effect us this weekend...not to mention I sign his paycheck....

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Old 03-16-2005, 12:31 PM   #142
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Sure you can rewind a 4300 motor, but it will fail the inductance test at tech and you will be publicly flogged as a cheater!

You could also take the 5800 stator and put it in a 4300 can, fail, same ambarrasment.

I say more power to the guy who hacks the ESC and get gobs more power out of a 4300 motor. You can talk all you want and try to compare in to a FI map or OCing your bus speed or whatever. It ain't the same thing. Not until I see somebody with a electrical engineering degree explain to me in scientific terms (please show your work, include the math) how your going to hack the Novak ESC to make the 4300 motor have more power will I even entertain that idea.
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Old 03-16-2005, 12:37 PM   #143
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Also, on the rule change, com'on. It had to change eventually. The writting has been on the wall for a year. There was plenty of warning.

And do you really think somebody is going to show up with some secret prototype brushless that is going to be able to put down more power/energy than a 7 turn brushed during a 5 minute race?

It simple ain't gonna make any difference how this weekend plays out. Of course I will be secretly wringing my hands hoping a brushless will smoke everyone!

Rules change and adapt, thank god.
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Old 03-16-2005, 12:39 PM   #144
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My argument on esc hax is based on very, very limited knowledge of brushless. I'm sure if the motor was spec'd then whatever you did to the speedo(not software restricted) could only have limited or no gain. I guess I was in the mindset of the current novak systems, where you could select a stock profile. So the question is should the reduced power classes have limits to motor, speedo, or battery output? Maybe we should start a new thread to discuss Brushless spec.
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Old 03-16-2005, 12:49 PM   #145
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I have to go with Eddie, Rick, et al. on this. There's no excuse for allowing prototype motors to compete directly with other motors that don't enjoy the same benefit. There's no excuse for changing the rules before a major event with no advance warning. There's no excuse for this type of "reactionary rulemaking."

I am all for brushless becoming a popular and viable option or class, but this is just dumb. Allow the two to compete, but give both motor types the same restrictions, or lack thereof.
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Old 03-16-2005, 12:53 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by EddieO
...not to mention I sign his paycheck....

Later EddieO
but you did mention it.

I understand your point just not your approach.
But hey... its only toy cars for bowling trophies to me.
I understand its more for you (rightfully so).

I'm just anxious to see if this was all crying over milk rather than spilled milk.
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Old 03-16-2005, 12:54 PM   #147
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And I really don't know how the whole ROAR thing works, if they did indeed just throw in this new rule, surprize to everybody, then ok, maybe a bit of a problem. There must have been some sort of warning to this recent change. If there was no warning at all, shame on ROAR, but again if you've been paying attention for the last couple years, you should have known it was coming.
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Old 03-16-2005, 12:55 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by GordonFreeman
Also, on the rule change, com'on. It had to change eventually. The writting has been on the wall for a year. There was plenty of warning.
A rule change is not in dispute. What is is that one type of motor seems to be getting preferential treatment when it comes to legalization procedures. Secondarily, one type of motor is allowed a magnet type the other is not. And there is no price limit for one type.

A level playing field is all that is requested.

Quote:
Originally posted by GordonFreeman
And do you really think somebody is going to show up with some secret prototype brushless that is going to be able to put down more power/energy than a 7 turn brushed during a 5 minute race?
Just go back to post 12 of this thread. It is the one that sparked the whole debate in the first place. FYI, the poster is the LRP race team manager. I think he has a pretty good idea what the team will attempt to use.
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Old 03-16-2005, 12:58 PM   #149
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I suppose it's like any new technology and trying to set standards for it. I mean VHS won out over Beta! Explain that one!
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:05 PM   #150
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I have never understood why its said like that......does kinda contradict itself....

I don't think the results this weekend really matter one way or the other.....

The issue is how this was all done and how to make sure it does not happen again.....if a brushless prototype wins, I just think it makes it look even worse...

My prediction, brushless will not do much in touring, but if ran, will see some solid finishes in 1/12th scale.....


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