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Old 09-10-2012, 08:52 AM   #46
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The newcomer is not losing because he cannot adjust the timing on his motor. You keep saying this is to help out the newbie and it will have no effect on their performance. You would now make it so the newbie would have to buy equipment so he can adjust the settings of his ESC at the track along with learning about it. You are not making it easier and cheaper for the newbie. You are giving them yet another reason and excuse to not practice driving more or focusing on setting up there car.
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:07 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by tc3team View Post
IMO...

the majority of the people replying here have raced for say, at least 6 months to a year plus, 75% probably more as an average - but who am I to know

(I have raced for 16+ and still counting).

WE know how this hobby works. The newcomer doesnt need timing IMO.

The newcomer needs a simple platform of racing to digest and grow into the complexity of timing, faster classes etc etc later.

Whats fun about wreckin' racin'?????
The new comer doesn't normally race the faster classes.

The beginner races are intended to race beginner classes such as run what you bring, silver can, or a very low speed brushless setup ie 21.5/17.5.

The faster classes are intermediate and experienced racers.

We run dynamic timing/open ESC at our club and we offer 2/3 classes (if you count mini) aimed at beginners. Once they have 18 months plus experience they have no issues with dynamic timing.
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:59 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by frozenpod View Post
Dan whilst I agree with you, you are pushing shit up hill in this thread mate.

The earlier ESCs already had fixed adjustable timing just as you are suggesting but they were banned when blinky ESCs came in.

The vast majority of US guys seem to hate dynamic timing. Any sentence with both words 'ESC' and 'timing' will be met with negativity.

Clearly some of the reponses indicate they haven't read your suggestion in detail but just noticed the words ESC and timing.
I see what you mean.

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Originally Posted by NolanP View Post
I'm still waiting for my answer on the timing of I would crank the timing in my motor and the esc. So whats the point? I'm listening for sure but at some point temps come into play. So If I run 50 degrees on my motor and 50 degrees in my speedo don't I technically have to gear down to keep it cooler? So that puts me back at just running full timing one way or another right?
Correct. 100 degrees would not be useful, but 50 degrees could be. If every motor had adjustments up to around 50 degrees we wouldn't be having this conversation, because I wouldn't have bothered to suggest the idea. Not every motor does though. The Speed Passion motors for instance have 0-10 degrees adjustment before you have to buy another optional timing board, which may or may not be legal depending on the sanctioning body you are running under. The LRP motors have quite a lot of timing standard, and some people have even commented to me that they'd like to be able to reduce that, if you could retard the timing through the ESC you could do that too. The idea is to even out the characteristics of the different motors caused by different levels of timing, by giving everyone access to the same range.

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Originally Posted by CR0SS View Post
The newcomer is not losing because he cannot adjust the timing on his motor. You keep saying this is to help out the newbie and it will have no effect on their performance. You would now make it so the newbie would have to buy equipment so he can adjust the settings of his ESC at the track along with learning about it. You are not making it easier and cheaper for the newbie. You are giving them yet another reason and excuse to not practice driving more or focusing on setting up there car.
When I say beginner I'm not really talking about the rank amateur, rather I'm talking about the driver the rank amateur becomes after about 6-7 months racing. It's at about that point they start thinking about how to improve their competitiveness with the answer usually being buy better stuff.
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Old 09-10-2012, 06:04 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Radio Active View Post
Correct. 100 degrees would not be useful, but 50 degrees could be. If every motor had adjustments up to around 50 degrees we wouldn't be having this conversation, because I wouldn't have bothered to suggest the idea. Not every motor does though. The Speed Passion motors for instance have 0-10 degrees adjustment before you have to buy another optional timing board, which may or may not be legal depending on the sanctioning body you are running under. The LRP motors have quite a lot of timing standard, and some people have even commented to me that they'd like to be able to reduce that, if you could retard the timing through the ESC you could do that too. The idea is to even out the characteristics of the different motors caused by different levels of timing, by giving everyone access to the same range.
I know that the Trinity motor D3.5 comes with 30 degrees built in. Revtech has timing, Thunder Power 50, Reedy tons......You guys arent just getting beat by the D3.5? Reedy Sonic then? I know that the Speed Passion isn't that far off of those two either with the stock board. I guess I'm just clueless cause I run the Trinity D3.5 stuff.

I guess with the temps I run my motor I don't need one more gear or one more degree of timing so why have a way to dial more in.
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Last edited by NolanP; 09-10-2012 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 09-10-2012, 07:16 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by NolanP View Post
I know that the Trinity motor D3.5 comes with 30 degrees built in. Revtech has timing, Thunder Power 50, Reedy tons......You guys arent just getting beat by the D3.5? Reedy Sonic then? I know that the Speed Passion isn't that far off of those two either with the stock board. I guess I'm just clueless cause I run the Trinity D3.5 stuff.

I guess with the temps I run my motor I don't need one more gear or one more degree of timing so why have a way to dial more in.
You wouldn't need/want the option I'm suggesting. Not everyone has a RevTech or a D3.5 though, that's all. Some of us are sick of playing with plug-ins and timing boards when there is a so much easier way. Others don't have any options at all, the motor has the timing it has most of those people eventually end up buying a new motor. Bishop's point earlier was that eventually all the motors would be like the D3.5 and the RevTech, so just wait and it will happen. Except I'm not convinced that the entry level motors like the HobbyWing will go that way, I'd say it's cheaper to keep making them the way they are. If we had ESC timing then we could probably be saving $10 every time we buy a new motor.
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Old 09-10-2012, 09:01 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Radio Active View Post
You wouldn't need/want the option I'm suggesting. Not everyone has a RevTech or a D3.5 though, that's all. Some of us are sick of playing with plug-ins and timing boards when there is a so much easier way. Others don't have any options at all, the motor has the timing it has most of those people eventually end up buying a new motor. Bishop's point earlier was that eventually all the motors would be like the D3.5 and the RevTech, so just wait and it will happen. Except I'm not convinced that the entry level motors like the HobbyWing will go that way, I'd say it's cheaper to keep making them the way they are. If we had ESC timing then we could probably be saving $10 every time we buy a new motor.
I see. Well I'll spend the 10 bucks on my motor so i can buy a good esc from Speed Passion that has zero timing for less than what my good motor costs.

So even if we stay in the Speed Passion boat cause they are a great esc for the price. So I go out and spend 90 dollars USD on my motor. D3.5. Then I go out and spend $30 on a Citrix Inspire that doesn't have timing. Thats $120. Thats a really low budget for racing 17.5 or 21.5 for that matter. Most will get the 90 dollar motor and the 130 dollar gt 2.1. $210 bucks is still cheap for a killer racing combo and your not gonna need to do anything other than twist the back of the motor either way.

If you want a budget class force a class with the citrix Inspire and the Sportsman 2 motor. $60 bucks.
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:54 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Radio Active View Post
When I say beginner I'm not really talking about the rank amateur, rather I'm talking about the driver the rank amateur becomes after about 6-7 months racing. It's at about that point they start thinking about how to improve their competitiveness with the answer usually being buy better stuff.
Dan, I believe you're starting to contradict yourself now with a statement like that. What type of newbies/beginners exactly that you are putting your argument across for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Active
The simplicity for newbies, whose first class is blinky, is one of my primary reasons for suggesting the idea.
Now are you talking about the beginners that are new to racing, or those beginning to want to go faster to be competitive as there is a distinct difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Active
Not everyone has a RevTech or a D3.5 though
You are correct there, other racers have Reedy, Tekin, Thunder Power, Team Powers, Viper, Novak, Fantom motors which all have easily accessible & adjustable endbell timing.

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Originally Posted by Radio Active
Some of us are sick of playing with plug-ins and timing boards when there is a so much easier way.
Ah, now I am beginning to understand, because there is a few that are not happy with the format that the masses voted on and embraced, those few want to change how things are done?

So how is unplugging your speed control from the receiver, plugging it into a hot wire, lcd/led box and possibly into a computer easier than undoing 3 screws and turning the end bell slightly? Often this method can be done trackside without having to plug in anything else into the car be it the esc or motor.

If people with "B" grade equipment want to keep up with the fast guys there's two ways of going about it.

Work on your race craft skills such as car setup and practice as much as you can to get the best performance out of your equipment.
Or, go out and buy the same equipment that the fast guys use, this is not limited to the motor alone, the fastest motor that is the "flavour of the month" is not going to win you races if you don't have the skill, batteries, tires, and car to back it up.
Such is the nature of racing, even within the constraints of any class or type of racing there will someone that is faster than you who will push their equipment to the edge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Active
I agree the current 21.5 blinky format we have in Aus is incredibly popular, I don't want to change it.
Again, why do you want to change it, even though you stated that you don't? The reason behind it's popular uptake, even by some of the people in faster classes is because of it's simplicity.

The definition of change -

verb
make or become different:
noun
an act or process through which something becomes different:

Also, for those that want to add their comments here about how boosted is better than blinky, there's plenty of other threads that are more relevant in that topic.
This thread is related to allowing the function of esc timing or not.

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Old 09-11-2012, 12:56 AM   #53
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Really guys this thread about blinky again... I think stock/Blinky is really pain in the a$$ if you don't wanna deal with it grow some webos and just run open MOD if you get beat you know it's fair and square their is no special program or software it's all about driving skills... But really running stock is more expensive than MOD tryin to get a slow motor to go fast just don't make sence....
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Old 09-11-2012, 01:06 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by ta04evah View Post
Again, why do you want to change it, even though you stated that you don't? The reason behind it's popular uptake, even by some of the people in faster classes is because of it's simplicity.

The definition of change -

verb
make or become different:
noun
an act or process through which something becomes different:
Rob,

It would not be any different in the spec of the motors, the speed of the motors or performance on track. Therefore it would not become different.

And the newest newbies are the ones who buy the motor for the class they are told is the beginner class. They look around and they find the cheapest 21.5 thinking they are all the same. They race, they learn, they get better. 6 months later when they've gotten better it is these same people who discover that their motor doesn't have the ability to be timed the same as those others are using. Then they are in the market for a new motor.

You don't necessarily need a program box or PC to change timing, many ESCs have settings that you go through a menu on, it would be easy to have timing as one of these settings on existing ESCs with a firmware update.

This is about saving people money without changing the class.

Also, from an Australian perspective, no one has ever voted for the specs we have for blinky, we're slaves to the ROAR specifications.
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Old 09-11-2012, 01:12 AM   #55
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If you guys wanna keep running stock you just have to deal with the BS... You need the newest motor, batteries and Speedo if you wanna be competitive on blinky/stock class...
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Old 09-11-2012, 02:09 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Jochim_18 View Post
If you guys wanna keep running stock you just have to deal with the BS... You need the newest motor, batteries and Speedo if you wanna be competitive on blinky/stock class...
i know race craft and set up in stock classes is everything..me myself im lucky to make a b qualifier but add some talent behind the wheel and it all changes.
MY car runs a one cell 21.5 speed passion so it hasnt got as much go as others but with my son driving it a different proposition.
Im working on my driving and consistency first and when i need more speed ill look for something else.
BUT TILL THEN MORE TRACK TIME..MORE PRACTISE

As for timing on speedys its not going to fly nor is it necesary.
when a fixed timing Hobbywing can run with a adjustable timing Revtech than all is good in the world....

PS>>IV JUST EXPERIENCED ALL THIS THRU THE EYE OF A NEWBY as clubs we need to be clear and concise to them to ensure they get the right stuff but if you want to make it clearer publish it in the results
then everybody knows whos running what...maybee the manufacturers will notice it as well
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Old 09-11-2012, 02:24 AM   #57
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I just think it's hard enough to convince some newer or even older racers to actually use the proper blinky firmwares, others can't even figure out how to flash or switch them into blinky mode.

So yet another firmware will just complicate it even more, it's not being helped that most ESC don't come in blinky mode, then you get a handful of people who just think winding down the 'boost' settings should make them legal, but the reality is many are 'still' pushing some timing to the motor even run like that.

Blinky as it stands is ok, but the makers really need to make some ESC easier to put into the right modes, or ship them in blinky mode, anyone that uses boost will likely know what they will need to do, so rather than coming up with yet another ESC mode, just wait for the motors to come around, and be sure stuff comes ready to use in blinky.
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:41 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Jochim_18 View Post
Really guys this thread about blinky again... I think stock/Blinky is really pain in the a$$ if you don't wanna deal with it grow some webos and just run open MOD if you get beat you know it's fair and square their is no special program or software it's all about driving skills... But really running stock is more expensive than MOD tryin to get a slow motor to go fast just don't make sence....
Dear Sir, while your right to voice your opinion here is a good thing, this thread is not about how "mod is better than stock, blinky, non boosted, blah blah blah"
The discussion within this thread is about whether to, or not allow *fixed* timing on the esc within blinky mode.

If you feel a need to shed tears trying to argue about mod/boost etc is better than everything else, then there is ample threads available to gain sympathy from others that share your view point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
I just think it's hard enough to convince some newer or even older racers to actually use the proper blinky firmwares, others can't even figure out how to flash or switch them into blinky mode.

So yet another firmware will just complicate it even more, it's not being helped that most ESC don't come in blinky mode, then you get a handful of people who just think winding down the 'boost' settings should make them legal, but the reality is many are 'still' pushing some timing to the motor even run like that.
This is so very true, and I witnessed an example of this recently. If it wasn't for one of our members that is trying their best to help some new comers to the hobby with a relatively new model of esc they would still be running the esc in dynamic timing mode. *instead of having it set to blinky mode*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Active
You don't necessarily need a program box or PC to change timing, many ESCs have settings that you go through a menu on, it would be easy to have timing as one of these settings on existing ESCs with a firmware update.
I will give you 3 examples of the instruction manuals of widely used esc's that can do both timing and 0 timing modes. Sure the Speed Passion example may be a bit of an overkill but place yourself in a newbies shoes and look for information within those manuals about how to set said esc's into blinky mode.
In the hobbywing example all it mentions is that 0 timing is an optional firmware, and that you HAVE to use the LCD box & PC to update the firmware to 0 timing. It can not be done through the menu system of the esc.

http://www.teamtekin.com/manuals/RSManual.pdf
http://www.hobbywing.com/uploadfiles.../HW-09-XST.pdf
http://www.racing-cars.com/images/GT2_LPF_Manual.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Active
Also, from an Australian perspective, no one has ever voted for the specs we have for blinky, we're slaves to the ROAR specifications.
True I will grant you that, however we adopted the ROAR specifications to keep things simple and to avoid any misunderstanding of the rules.
This also includes batteries & motors that can only be used in sanctioned events within Australia that appear on the approval lists, which one of them is the ROAR listings.

You're basing your argument that we are slaves to the ROAR rules, yet you want ROAR to take on board the changes you are proposing?

Please excuse my skepticism here but you do seem to be contradicting yourself often in this discussion.

Cheers
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Last edited by ta04evah; 09-11-2012 at 05:01 AM. Reason: Description error & amendment
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:55 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ta04evah View Post
The discussion within this thread is about whether to, or not allow dynamic timing on the esc within blinky mode.
Now I see why you are so against this. You think it is dynamic timing. It's not. It's fixed timing exactly the same as you adjust on your endbell. Completely different things.
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Old 09-11-2012, 04:57 AM   #60
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Now I see why you are so against this. You think it is dynamic timing. It's not. It's fixed timing exactly the same as you adjust on your endbell. Completely different things.
Ok I made a mistake, for some reason I referred to it as dynamic timing where it should be fixed timing. However I am still against the proposal as I believe it will just open another Pandora's box of issues for those both new and experienced in the hobby.
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