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Old 09-08-2012, 12:07 PM   #31
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I really don't think we 'need' another firmware, give it time and all the brands will migrate to quick adjust end timing like a few have now, it makes timing changes dead easy, which negates any of what your asking.
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Old 09-08-2012, 06:10 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by bencason View Post
THIS!

Someone new to R/C needs to focus on learning to drive & setup their car more than anything else. I think the keyword, once the car is setup decent, is Practice, Practice, Practice! Watch the fast guys, it it not just their gear that makes them fast, it is the hours of racing + practice they put on top of their knowledge about setup and dealing with changing conditions on race day.

You cannot buy perfect vision, astounding reflexes, & nerves of steel like a world level racer needs to have. A "newb" gains nothing in the long run by worrying about anything until they can do 5-8 minutes on the track without hitting a board or other racer.

I don't think anything needs to change at the "big" races. We don't need a "rule change of the week" approach. Leave well enough alone and just race. When something needs to change it will be obvious. Big technology steps like digital servos, LIPO batteries, 2.4 ghz radios, and brushless motors are huge compared to whether you make timing changes in the motor or in the ESC.

At the local club level, as has been said before, tweak the rules to suit the local racers and keep the hobby fun. If you are ready to run a "big" race, you'll know the rule differences your local track uses and run the "big" race rules as preparation.
We do everything you've talked about already.

Just because we help new racers in some ways already doesn't mean we shouldn't look at other ways to help too.
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Old 09-08-2012, 07:09 PM   #33
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Radioactive, what I meant by charging techniques is that some have their own formula to get more punch out of their batteries, including sometimes charging way past the manufacturers C rating. Remember, the manufacturer C rating is meant to optimize the life of the pack, not to optimize Performance within a six minute run. Some are willing to push their packs until they burst in just One day, as long as they had an edge to win: charging at 30A+....etc.... I bet some will even go as far as building their own 100+Amps charger just so they can win..... No esc rule will stop that quest for an edge, and those willing to spend the cash (or be sponsored) will always be ahead of the pack...
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Old 09-08-2012, 07:20 PM   #34
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No point in over-complicating things that are already hard for newbies to the hobby to grasp.
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Old 09-08-2012, 07:23 PM   #35
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Radioactive, what I meant by charging techniques is that some have their own formula to get more punch out of their batteries, including sometimes charging way past the manufacturers C rating. Remember, the manufacturer C rating is meant to optimize the life of the pack, not to optimize Performance within a six minute run. Some are willing to push their packs until they burst in just One day, as long as they had an edge to win: charging at 30A+....etc.... I bet some will even go as far as building their own 100+Amps charger just so they can win..... No esc rule will stop that quest for an edge, and those willing to spend the cash (or be sponsored) will always be ahead of the pack...
I see. The Australian rules prevent people from charging past the manufacturer rating. The ROAR Rule (8.3.2.5.3) actually mandates a 1C charge rate. Obviously not every meet is run to these rules, but it does provide a measure of protection at those that are.
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Old 09-08-2012, 08:00 PM   #36
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What I'm trying really hard and failing to get across to you Rob is that this wouldn't be a change, it's only a minor tweak so that some people with otherwise inferior motors can do exactly what other people are already doing with motors with a broader timing range.
Going by the majority of the comments in this thread that are saying to leave it how it is, you're not having much success there either. The reason for this is that those who enjoy the class are wary that adding a timing adjustment on the esc will start to complicate things more.

Quote:
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I agree the current 21.5 blinky format we have in Aus is incredibly popular
This is something we both agree on.

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Originally Posted by Radio Active
I don't want to change it.
Then don't. Zero esc timing is working in the US, it is working here, there's no need to change/tweak it. The Zero timing class timing class was created to get away from the timing and turbo features that many did not want.

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I only give access to the biggest tuning weapon the big bucks guys have to everyone, and save the club racers with old B grade equipment from feeling that they need to update to compete at club level.
If you have B grade equipment/motors no amount of esc timing is going to be able to beat the big buck guys.
I myself always say that you don't have to spend a lot of money to be competitive, sure you may not win or gain a podium position, but you'll race with others that are around your same pace.

To address the issue you've brought up, at our club we're trialling a blinky "pro" class for those that do not want to step up to a timing & turbo esc class. There are no championship points or trophy's for this class, those that have willingly joined it like the fierce competition at the pointy end of the class.

Whether this works or not is yet to be seen. I realise that some clubs do not have the numbers to do this but I believe it's a better option than changing the most popular on road class in this state.

Cheers
Rob.
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Old 09-08-2012, 08:14 PM   #37
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Then don't. Zero esc timing is working in the US, it is working here, there's no need to change/tweak it. The Zero timing class timing class was created to get away from the timing and turbo features that many did not want.
This is the major point we disagree on, and it is where all the other disagreement, just about, comes from in this thread.

I maintain the adjustment already exists in the class, and therefore giving people access to another way to set it complicates nothing. It doesn't change the class one tiny little bit.

All it does is give the ability to time motors over a greater range to people without having to buy a new motor.

----

My interpretation of the response in the thread is people are wary that this will be the thin end of the wedge to bring back boost. When people think of timing and ESCs they think of boost and how that changed racing.

That's the wrong way to think about this idea. You want to be thinking of it as a way to electronically change the endbell timing, because that's all it is. As it stands, if the program box plugged into the motor to make this adjustment rather than the ESC it would already be legal. I'm not an electronics guy, but I would guess that technology is already possible, the current motors have circuit boards in the endbells already. So, in the end, what difference does it make where I plug my cable in to make the same adjustment?
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:39 AM   #38
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I can tell you now with brushless there is so little variance between motors. Yeah your gonna get a freak motor or a slower motor but the 98 percent is going to be so close to equal. 6 months to a year for an esc I'll pass. If you think I'm wrong what happened with boosted 13.5 and 17.5? It became blinky why? To keep it so you don't need a speed control to compete.
All the A-Mains for me at MWGS races for 3+ years running the same Tekin RS pro, blinky or boosted negates the ESC argument. I still say LOCK the motor, and leave the ESC open.
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:47 AM   #39
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.
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1
My interpretation of the response in the thread is people are wary that this will be the thin end of the wedge to bring back boost.
Please. by all means, let it be so....... boost rules......
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Old 09-09-2012, 06:09 PM   #40
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Dan whilst I agree with you, you are pushing shit up hill in this thread mate.

The earlier ESCs already had fixed adjustable timing just as you are suggesting but they were banned when blinky ESCs came in.

The vast majority of US guys seem to hate dynamic timing. Any sentence with both words 'ESC' and 'timing' will be met with negativity.

Clearly some of the reponses indicate they haven't read your suggestion in detail but just noticed the words ESC and timing.

Last edited by frozenpod; 09-09-2012 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:25 PM   #41
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.

Please. by all means, let it be so....... boost rules......
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Dan whilst I agree with you, you are pushing shit up hill in this thread mate.

The earlier ESCs already had fixed adjustable timing just as you are suggesting but they were banned when blinky ESCs came in.

The vast majority of US guys seem to hate dynamic timing. Any sentence with both words 'ESC' and 'timing' will be met with negativity.

Clearly some of the reponses indicate they haven't read your suggestion in detail but just noticed the words ESC and timing.
Boosted Sedan 17.5 super close to mod speeds, without the violent hit of an actual mod motor, A lot of Sedan guys in the US prefer it to blinky

Booted 12th, a lot of us in the US of A prefer it to blinky

But Blinky and Mod are where it's at
We could have worse problems though, like another official esc setting somewhere in the middle....
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:07 PM   #42
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Not going to start another blinky vs boost but we run 13.5 boost locally and it a good step slower than mod.

Back to this thread I don't see a problem with fixed timing set in the ESC or motor the result is the same, performance is the same.
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:29 AM   #43
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IMO...

the majority of the people replying here have raced for say, at least 6 months to a year plus, 75% probably more as an average - but who am I to know

(I have raced for 16+ and still counting).

WE know how this hobby works. The newcomer doesnt need timing IMO.

The newcomer needs a simple platform of racing to digest and grow into the complexity of timing, faster classes etc etc later.

Whats fun about wreckin' racin'?????
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Old 09-10-2012, 06:55 AM   #44
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IMO...

the majority of the people replying here have raced for say, at least 6 months to a year plus, 75% probably more as an average - but who am I to know

(I have raced for 16+ and still counting).

WE know how this hobby works. The newcomer doesnt need timing IMO.

The newcomer needs a simple platform of racing to digest and grow into the complexity of timing, faster classes etc etc later.

Whats fun about wreckin' racin'?????
I agree, but given that we already have timing...
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Old 09-10-2012, 08:27 AM   #45
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I agree, but given that we already have timing...
I'm still waiting for my answer on the timing of I would crank the timing in my motor and the esc. So whats the point? I'm listening for sure but at some point temps come into play. So If I run 50 degrees on my motor and 50 degrees in my speedo don't I technically have to gear down to keep it cooler? So that puts me back at just running full timing one way or another right?
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