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Old 08-29-2012, 06:03 AM   #1
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Default Setting motor/esc for correct temp.

Hello everyone,
I am sorry to start a new thread, but I kinda need help regarding my motor...
I have a Speed passion GT 2.0 LPF ESC (still with stock firmware like when I bought it, haven't got the LCD programm card ...) with a LRP x12 13.5t motor.
I run on indoor carpet track, quite tight. Well, its 69ft x 36ft. (21m x 11.6m ).
Last time I ran it, i managed to do very well (while all the others are using 10.5 motors), and got great speed, but when I came off after 5 mins, the motor was at 250 degrees farenheit !! Roughly 120 celcius. And i can tell it's not the temp gauge messing about, as i got the ambient temp fine, i got other motors running fine, but my motor was crazyli hot. I could put my hand on it for more then 1 sec.
My gearing was 7.8, then went down to 6.2. And at 6.2, the motor was 120 celcius. I have got the 4dot timing insert (-10 deg timing) and on the ESC, I have set it to max advanced timing, which is 26 deg timing.
I used to always 26 deg timing on ESC, so I don't think it's the problem.
Does anyone have a recomendation on gearing for such track, and HOW I should actually gear a motor properly ?
(Like start of with 0 deg timing on motor and lower deg timing on ESC and then once I get the motor at 60 degrees celcius, increase all the timing back to get th emotor to 80 degrees ? )

Thank you very much
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:23 AM   #2
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On a tight track, i would think that you want torque over top speed. In this case, running the motor with little mechanical timing would be the choice for acceleration torque. running "boost' or electronic timing advance on the ESC, as the RPM is up in range would then help the upper speed .... if needed.

As for gearing, drop your ratio until you can run a whole race (5 minutes, or what ever you run) and keep the motor under the manufacturer's temp limit. Most manufacturer's recommend under 160-f, most racers will want to be under 150-f, many would like to keep it under 140-f.

You noted that you kept gearing up (going to higher gearing) ... this will only make the motor hotter. Go the other way with the gearing. You did not mention what you are running (what ratio the transmission is), but most will run with a final ratio in the 6.0:1 to 7.0:1 as a general range. this is the pinion/spur ratio multiplied by the transmission gear ratio. Just keep going with a smaller pinion or larger spur, until the motor temp is in line. Then go back and play with timing, if you feel the need to ...... which may mean a final gear change if the motor goes hot again, by adding a bunch of timing ...... which you may not actually need.

Going back an noticing that you posted in on-road electric .... you may not have a trans, and the pinion/spur is your final ration. You still need to go to a lower gear ratio (higher ratio number) to get the temp down, but start with less motor timing.

At least that's how I'd look at it for the off-road that I run.
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:14 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by M3EATER View Post
On a tight track, i would think that you want torque over top speed. In this case, running the motor with little mechanical timing would be the choice for acceleration torque. running "boost' or electronic timing advance on the ESC, as the RPM is up in range would then help the upper speed .... if needed.

As for gearing, drop your ratio until you can run a whole race (5 minutes, or what ever you run) and keep the motor under the manufacturer's temp limit. Most manufacturer's recommend under 160-f, most racers will want to be under 150-f, many would like to keep it under 140-f.

You noted that you kept gearing up (going to higher gearing) ... this will only make the motor hotter. Go the other way with the gearing. You did not mention what you are running (what ratio the transmission is), but most will run with a final ratio in the 6.0:1 to 7.0:1 as a general range. this is the pinion/spur ratio multiplied by the transmission gear ratio. Just keep going with a smaller pinion or larger spur, until the motor temp is in line. Then go back and play with timing, if you feel the need to ...... which may mean a final gear change if the motor goes hot again, by adding a bunch of timing ...... which you may not actually need.

Going back an noticing that you posted in on-road electric .... you may not have a trans, and the pinion/spur is your final ration. You still need to go to a lower gear ratio (higher ratio number) to get the temp down, but start with less motor timing.

At least that's how I'd look at it for the off-road that I run.
Cheers for the quick reply.
I will try less mechanical timing.
The transmition ratio is 1.94, my spur is 113 (cant go bigger) and currently pinion is 37, so i'm at 5.8 fdr.
At my track I was told the opposite, that the reason why its heating up is because the motor is reving like crazy, so I had a too small pinion. So they told me to go to a bigger pinion (went from a 30t to a 33 then 35. Now a 37)
I don't really know now :/
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:29 AM   #4
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With the LRP motors, you need to stick with the 4-dot insert. That is the minimum timing and the best for 99% of situations.

They do have a tendency to run hot, not necessarily a problem, it is a problem if you notice the motor go soft at the end of the run (no acceleration, no brakes).

I'd also recommend buying the LCD programmer and updating the software to the latest versions online. You can use either Speed Passion or Hobbywing software (I'd go Hobbywing because they are the manufacturer and the software seems to get more regular updates).

I think the GT2.0 came with a modified motor profile. This is not what is currently preferred for stock motors. Depending on your track rules, you should either be running "blinky" (zero timing) software or "boost" (added timing) software. Blinky is a lot simpler and is the direction most stock racing around the world is going in.

Gearing depends on the track (no surprise there!). If you can hear/feel the motor revving out on the straights, then you are undergeared and need a larger pinion. If you are very undergeared, that can sometimes cause excess heat because the motor is running at full rpm for too long. With brushless motors you can gear them up quite high before they start to feel slow out of the corners, and the temps will start to rise at that point as well.

13.5 "blinky" gearing is typically between 6.0:1 for a very small track (smaller than yours), up towards 4.5:1 for a big track. That is just a generalisation, because different motors, tracks and driving styles will need a different gear. Start at 6.0:1, and gear up a pinion at a time until you get the right balance of speed, laptime and motor heat (not just from the temp gun, but from the feel of the motor during the run - it shouldn't go soft, because at that point you are cooking the magnet).

Boosted gear ratios are a minefield.

Hope that helps.
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:46 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by sosidge View Post
With the LRP motors, you need to stick with the 4-dot insert. That is the minimum timing and the best for 99% of situations.

They do have a tendency to run hot, not necessarily a problem, it is a problem if you notice the motor go soft at the end of the run (no acceleration, no brakes).

I'd also recommend buying the LCD programmer and updating the software to the latest versions online. You can use either Speed Passion or Hobbywing software (I'd go Hobbywing because they are the manufacturer and the software seems to get more regular updates).

I think the GT2.0 came with a modified motor profile. This is not what is currently preferred for stock motors. Depending on your track rules, you should either be running "blinky" (zero timing) software or "boost" (added timing) software. Blinky is a lot simpler and is the direction most stock racing around the world is going in.

Gearing depends on the track (no surprise there!). If you can hear/feel the motor revving out on the straights, then you are undergeared and need a larger pinion. If you are very undergeared, that can sometimes cause excess heat because the motor is running at full rpm for too long. With brushless motors you can gear them up quite high before they start to feel slow out of the corners, and the temps will start to rise at that point as well.

13.5 "blinky" gearing is typically between 6.0:1 for a very small track (smaller than yours), up towards 4.5:1 for a big track. That is just a generalisation, because different motors, tracks and driving styles will need a different gear. Start at 6.0:1, and gear up a pinion at a time until you get the right balance of speed, laptime and motor heat (not just from the temp gun, but from the feel of the motor during the run - it shouldn't go soft, because at that point you are cooking the magnet).

Boosted gear ratios are a minefield.

Hope that helps.
Sosidge, when you said "The motor shouldn't go soft", I felt concerned.
After roughly 3 minutes (or even less) I can feel the motor going "soft". I get less power, not as sharp braking and the motor does feel flower. At first I thought it was the battery problem, but no since my batts are new.
So it is clearly the motor problem. (Since the temp gun is showing crazy temps and it follow what you said of a "soft" motor).
As you said to run the 4dot insert, thats what I'm doing, but should I be running it in the -10 or + 10 ? I don't really know how to explain ...
So according to you, I should continue to gear it up ? I've went from 35t to 37, and then I'll see how it goes. With the 37 tooth, i get a fdr of 5.9. I think I'll try even bigger pinion after.

Finally regarding ESC's. I don't really know about the current firmware(software, what ever it's called ) but it might be a mod software as you said. I don't know. It's just the stock one on a GT 2.0.
Currently at this club, they don't check if it's "blinky" or boosted. Some people got boost, some dont. (I don't and still manage to be extremely close to the 10.5 boosted down the straight.)
But soon, in september I'll be attending a race with 13.5 "open" ESC (which I believes refers to boosted) or 17.5 "blinky''. Since I run 13.5, I think I'll get the LCD card, and update my ESC to a stock boosted software, and see how that goes. But thats not too soon.

But I was wondering, how exactly is the "blinky" ESCs set ?
I mean, currently, is my ESC considered as Blinky ? Is there like a forced to use ESC with "blinky" settings ? Or specific firmwares to have a blinky ESC ?

And is it bad if I got like 2 day of racing on my motor and it got soft almost every run ?
What do you mean that boosted gearing is a minefield ? It doesn't sound too positive to me


Other than that, can I keep maximum timing on my ESC and motor until I correct my gearing ?

Thanks alot

Edit : Do you know any firmware that could be good for my motor ? Or like what are the latest ? And what exactly is the difference between HW and SP ? (I will do more research on my own, just to answer from the top of your head if you can, thanks.)
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:04 AM   #6
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OK...

- Insert - should be used in the -10 position (+10 is actually "zero dot")

- Motor feeling soft - this is bad. Doing it time and time again will permanently damage the motor. Couldn't say whether or not you have already hurt yours. Check motor timing, gear ratio and of course the free movement of the transmission (tight gear mesh and seized bearings will generate a lot of heat even if you are on a recommended gear ratio)

- GT2.0 with the old software will not be legal for blinky. It would be legal in boosted but won't keep up with the boosted cars. If you decide to use the Hobbywing software, I've put some info about it on my blog. Basically 508 for blinky and 930STOCK for boost. Start at default settings.


Hope that helps
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:12 AM   #7
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OK...

- Insert - should be used in the -10 position (+10 is actually "zero dot")

- Motor feeling soft - this is bad. Doing it time and time again will permanently damage the motor. Couldn't say whether or not you have already hurt yours. Check motor timing, gear ratio and of course the free movement of the transmission (tight gear mesh and seized bearings will generate a lot of heat even if you are on a recommended gear ratio)

- GT2.0 with the old software will not be legal for blinky. It would be legal in boosted but won't keep up with the boosted cars. If you decide to use the Hobbywing software, I've put some info about it on my blog. Basically 508 for blinky and 930STOCK for boost. Start at default settings.


Hope that helps
Sosidge, been great help. And I appreciate alot.
For timing, Im set.
Gear mesh is perfect, not too tight, not too free.
Bearing, well I opened the motor Yesterday (Or two days ago, cant actually figure out which day we are ^^ ) and both bearing at each end would spin freely.

Finally, for the ESC, I will check you blog asap. Have saved it.
But one thing, does it mean that if anyone wants to run blinky with a new ESC, they would have to "upgrade" their ESC to a blinky firmware to be able to compete in the blinky class ? Does it mean they (Anyone) would have to buy a programming card to run blinky or even boosted ?
And can I flash the 930STOCK HW firmware with the speedpassion LCD card and same for futur releases ?

Last question, over a 5min race, lets say you had two identical cars, but one running boosted, the other running non-boosted. How much degree difference would there be between both motors (Of course, everything is identical, motor, gearing blablabla) ?
And if I wanted to go for a new motor in the boosted 13.5 class, what would be a good one/new one to keep up ? (Dont care about the price).

Thanks alot for all the help, you've deffo cleared out alot of things in my mind !
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:36 AM   #8
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Yes, you need to update the firmware to be legal in blinky and up-to-date in boosted. Blinky is a specific setting that the old mod firmware does not match.

Once you have the LCD programmer you can change the ESC to any firmware you like, and change back again.

Your question about temperature differences between blinky and boosted is impossible to answer. Boosted software works in a completely different way and can give unexpected results. Running a blinky gear ratio in boosted will almost certainly overheat the motor though.

I've used a Speed Passion V3 motor for the last three years in blinky and boosted 13.5. It has been a good motor to me. I've recently started using an HPI Flux Pro in 17.5. Also seems to be a good motor. You will get recommendations for a lot of motors, there is not really much between them in performance on the track, but some of them have different timing adjustments and prefer slightly different gear ratios. It just takes a little testing to get the best out of them.
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Old 08-29-2012, 11:35 AM   #9
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Yes, you need to update the firmware to be legal in blinky and up-to-date in boosted. Blinky is a specific setting that the old mod firmware does not match.

Once you have the LCD programmer you can change the ESC to any firmware you like, and change back again.

Your question about temperature differences between blinky and boosted is impossible to answer. Boosted software works in a completely different way and can give unexpected results. Running a blinky gear ratio in boosted will almost certainly overheat the motor though.

I've used a Speed Passion V3 motor for the last three years in blinky and boosted 13.5. It has been a good motor to me. I've recently started using an HPI Flux Pro in 17.5. Also seems to be a good motor. You will get recommendations for a lot of motors, there is not really much between them in performance on the track, but some of them have different timing adjustments and prefer slightly different gear ratios. It just takes a little testing to get the best out of them.
Great mate !
Thanks alot again for all the help !
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:49 PM   #10
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which gauge you used?
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:29 PM   #11
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which gauge you used?
A Kyosho temp gauge, paid roughly 50 Euros at my local hobby shop.
I know prices can be fake but I know the guy and he said it was a reliable temp gauge. It's probably as big as my whole thumb, so quite small (I find that good).
I used it on my petrol car aswell, seemed to work well ^^
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:45 PM   #12
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A Kyosho temp gauge, paid roughly 50 Euros at my local hobby shop.
I know prices can be fake but I know the guy and he said it was a reliable temp gauge. It's probably as big as my whole thumb, so quite small (I find that good).
I used it on my petrol car aswell, seemed to work well ^^
you should try with other temp gauge like Raytek or Exergen

my friend has other temp gauge like this one that you have, and the difference between Exergen and the other was 30 Celsius.

before any other change try measure with Raytek or Exergen temp gauge
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Old 08-29-2012, 03:10 PM   #13
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you should try with other temp gauge like Raytek or Exergen

my friend has other temp gauge like this one that you have, and the difference between Exergen and the other was 30 Celsius.

before any other change try measure with Raytek or Exergen temp gauge
Thanks for your input, I will try to find another temp gun, but the thing is that on the race day, I took the temp of the other guys racing and my temp gauge was showing the same temps as of the other guys. With just about 3 degrees celcius difference. While there motors were running at 75 deg, mine was 120
So i don't think that my temp gauge is not working fine, because it works like the others, but thank anyway
I'll try with the other guys gauge
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