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Old 09-05-2012, 03:35 PM   #106
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I'm actually in favor of rewriting the stock motor rules. What we run today is basically what Open Mod used to be, except with a minimum wind rule.

What I'd like to see is the stock motor be something like the stamped can SpeedPassion has, with one exception that Randy points out. Timing on the motor should be open. You're going to have manufacturing tolerances on how tight the stator is, on how strong the rotor is, and what timing is shipped with. I'd have to buy all new parts to replace rotors and stators, which is what I want to get away from. Timing on the other hand, if left open, doesn't get effected by manufacturing tolerances.

So if we've already got blinky ESC's, and want handout style motors, I'd suggest that physical motor timing be left open to eliminate one variable from manufacturing (many manufacturers are already going with infinite style sensor boards like the Ballastics for example).

The Super Stock class could take any number of forms. Open ESC 17.5, blinky 13.5, it all depends on what route is chosen. Open ESC will still exist in mod racing, so maybe you want that middle ground to include learning that aspect at a speed where the car is still in one piece if you make a mistake. Of course you could also say that might impede people moving out of the stock class as its another thing to mess with so maybe its best to make it blinky. I can see arguments either way.
An EXAMPLE (and only example) of motor I'm talking about is the Trinty 17.5 Monster Lockedô ROAR Spec Link. Again this is only serve as an example of what can be done....
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:36 PM   #107
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You still have to work with manufacturers if you want to grow the hobby. Not worship them, though.
Exactly.....
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Old 09-05-2012, 04:52 PM   #108
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ROAR has been a good partner for us. We use the venue insurance, and it is an affordable package for the racers and club. For that reason alone, I reckon the $25 annual due offers a good value.

Every organization can improve itself and what it offers. So, restricting the perspective to electric onroad and not looking to be exhaustive...

Encourage and Support Clubs

Everyone says this, but what does it mean? First, use the ROAR website to create a database of Best Practices. That is, show with pictures, text, and video how successful clubs around the country do what they do. Where do they run? What is their equipment? How much does it cost? Where do they source materials? What is their history?

Being fresh back from Paved Nationals, I am really surprised by how little awareness there is of how this sport is conducted beyond each individual's local area. I was trying to explain how we operate in Seattle, and there was simply disbelief that we can exist, let alone thrive, with a temporary club track. Earlier in this thread, someone commented that he can't think of a single club track! Too often, we hear that the local scene dies or goes into deep hibernation because the last commercial track in town closes its doors. There is simply no need. Not if the knowledge of how other clubs succeed by other means is readily available. The internet is the perfect tool for this.

Offer a Model Track. That is, a conveniently printable .pdf with reasonably up to date estimates of materials and cost for a club to build a low-overhead, temporary track suitable for a community space. For instance, $2500 +/- will drop three 80' rolls of CRC Fasttrak rug on your doorstep. Another $500 in vinyl downspout, wood slugs, velcro, and Losi Dots and you have a track that ten guys can build in twenty minutes in a gym. If you ask, I would bet that 3 times out of 5 there will be a storage solution for the track conveniently at hand onsite. Timing and scoring is a big nut, to be sure. Buy, beg, or borrow a timing/scoring solution as you can. Amb is not the only option. It's just the most expensive.

That's a track, but a track is not a race program. My conviction is that a club that gathers to build a track will find the race program part of it a joy. Where everyone (or mostly everyone) pitches in, the minor things that divide us are revealed for what they are: minor. To misquote Goethe: "Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid." You may be amazed and humbled by how much support the effort will receive.

Stagger Nationals and Build State, Regional, and Super Regional Championships

For all that club racing is struggling, we do not lack for high end travel races. From IIC to Snowbirds to Reedy, we enjoy several opportunities to spend many thousands of dollars on multi-day races each and every year. Pack in the big regionals: Region 5, Halloween Classic, Timezone Grand Prix, etc. and it's no wonder ROAR Nationals struggles to fill its heats. ROAR Carpet and Paved Nationals should be on a staggered, biannual cycle: one year Carpet Nats, the next Paved. On the off years, ROAR should really push the Regional championships. For instance, let's say the end of March (give or take) is ROAR Champs Week. If it's a Nationals year, then that means Nationals. If it's a Regionals year, that means every Region selects a host site for its Championships. (Some of this is already done, but it can be pumped up.)

Nationals should take three days at the most: one day for practice, one for qualifying, and one for Mains. Regionals should take two days. Practice/Qualifying and Mains. Actually, I would argue that Regionals should be held every year. On a Nationals year, make Regionals a one-day race in February (for indoor) and July( for outdoor.) And whether Regionals or Nationals, they should always be hosted by a ROAR-member track.

One can go on endlessly. But there's two things. Best Practices and Build Regionals by creating room for regionals on the calendar.
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:05 PM   #109
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Some really good ideas pouring in concerning building value and creating prestige (something Ive generally got the feeling is lacking, especially regionals). Hopefully the future prez is at least reading.
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:39 PM   #110
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WOW it has been over 2 years and what happened here?

ernest-provetti-open-letter-to-rc-industry
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:40 PM   #111
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Locked timing motors will ONLY work when they're used as handouts. There are far too many variables between manufacturers and manufacturing techniques to have two different mfg's 17.5 "locked" at the exact same timing and perform the same.

You already have blinky esc's...why kill adjustable timing too? Are you guys now saying motor timing is affecting the racing? Sorry but I'd have to snicker at this a bit. We had brushes and springs to tune with let alone half a dozen other "tricks" to make a brushed motor go fast, even handout motors.

If the speed is still too fast..slow the cars down, again. If you want to properly eliminate motor timing run the motors in sensorless mode with the speedos. This negates ANY and ALL motor timing, period. Note that nearly all the current esc mfg's in the market today posses this technology and drive in current products.

Speed isn't killing the classes or the racing. Maybe there should be an "IROC" Class where you get an entire handout car!?

Driving skill along with car setup and tuning skills is and will always be part of racing. I don't care HOW you limit the "stock" class the fast guys will always be fast...

If you feel the need to create a class that removes the skill or lowers the skill level to meet the needs and desires of "some" then make a car that is cheap, has little to no adjustments, doesn't break, and looks reasonably like the real thing. Sounds kinda like the Traxxas Slash doesn't it?!?!?!?
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:42 PM   #112
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WOW it has been over 2 years and what happened here?

ernest-provetti-open-letter-to-rc-industry
Yeah however that "class" was Sportsman Stock... NOT stock racing.
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:52 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
Locked timing motors will ONLY work when they're used as handouts. There are far too many variables between manufacturers and manufacturing techniques to have two different mfg's 17.5 "locked" at the exact same timing and perform the same.

You already have blinky esc's...why kill adjustable timing too? Are you guys now saying motor timing is affecting the racing? Sorry but I'd have to snicker at this a bit. We had brushes and springs to tune with let alone half a dozen other "tricks" to make a brushed motor go fast, even handout motors.

If the speed is still too fast..slow the cars down, again. If you want to properly eliminate motor timing run the motors in sensorless mode with the speedos. This negates ANY and ALL motor timing, period. Note that nearly all the current esc mfg's in the market today posses this technology and drive in current products.

Speed isn't killing the classes or the racing. Maybe there should be an "IROC" Class where you get an entire handout car!?

Driving skill along with car setup and tuning skills is and will always be part of racing. I don't care HOW you limit the "stock" class the fast guys will always be fast...

If you feel the need to create a class that removes the skill or lowers the skill level to meet the needs and desires of "some" then make a car that is cheap, has little to no adjustments, doesn't break, and looks reasonably like the real thing. Sounds kinda like the Traxxas Slash doesn't it?!?!?!?
Excellent post... excellent points..
Ok I can now agree, leave timing on the motor alone... or go to a senorless mode, so what are the issues with that? I'm asking... not making wise crack...

I do like the name "IROC Stock" or "Average Joe Stock"... The point is to make the class for the average racer, and make it so the Pro will stay away. It is not question of speed... It is a question of average racers getting run out of town at the big races. Look at other big races that have had a Sportsman class....

So what is the problem with having Stock and Pro Stock class and see what happens? It is clear the current format is not working....

Randy - I think you are missing the point, Stock is fine, the problem is the Pro drivers in the class. This for me is the core issue. So how would you get them out? How would you recommend to encourage them to run Pro Stock and stay out of Stock. I was simpling make the class so they can not run it because of sponsorship oblations. Most are pro drivers are pushed by the sponsorship to run stock, which we are back to the manufactures taking responsibility... Or do you not see that the Pro drivers in stock as an issue?
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:53 PM   #114
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Yeah however that "class" was Sportsman Stock... NOT stock racing.
Ok, So let's hear from local clubs that have a good "Stock" class... What are rules???
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:16 PM   #115
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Ok, So let's hear from local clubs that have a good "Stock" class... What are rules???
http://seattlercracers.com/specsrules/

Stock 1/12, Stock TC, and Scale Spec were all well-populated on club days last year, always with at least a full A, sometimes even with a few down in a C.

Mod TC and Mod 1/12 are new to the full-time schedule this year, we'll see how that goes.

WGT was a full-time class last year, and frequently didn't have more than 3 cars.

Stock 1/12 was 13.5 blinky last year, and 17.5 blinky this year, so we'll see how that affects entries.

Stock TC and Stock 1/12 both grew when we went to blinky speedos at the start of last season.

Scale Spec would likely not be as successful as it is if it were straight VTA. Around half the field runs a GT-style body with the X-pattern tires. Performance between GT and VTA style is pretty much indistinguishable.

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Old 09-05-2012, 10:38 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
Locked timing motors will ONLY work when they're used as handouts. There are far too many variables between manufacturers and manufacturing techniques to have two different mfg's 17.5 "locked" at the exact same timing and perform the same.

You already have blinky esc's...why kill adjustable timing too? Are you guys now saying motor timing is affecting the racing? Sorry but I'd have to snicker at this a bit. We had brushes and springs to tune with let alone half a dozen other "tricks" to make a brushed motor go fast, even handout motors.

If the speed is still too fast..slow the cars down, again. If you want to properly eliminate motor timing run the motors in sensorless mode with the speedos. This negates ANY and ALL motor timing, period. Note that nearly all the current esc mfg's in the market today posses this technology and drive in current products.

Speed isn't killing the classes or the racing. Maybe there should be an "IROC" Class where you get an entire handout car!?

Driving skill along with car setup and tuning skills is and will always be part of racing. I don't care HOW you limit the "stock" class the fast guys will always be fast...

If you feel the need to create a class that removes the skill or lowers the skill level to meet the needs and desires of "some" then make a car that is cheap, has little to no adjustments, doesn't break, and looks reasonably like the real thing. Sounds kinda like the Traxxas Slash doesn't it?!?!?!?
Great post.

One thing I would like to see is the end of optional tuning rotors in the 17.5 classes. Everyone loved the idea of brushless because it was going to be so simple and CHEAPER. Hell, a tuning rotor costs more than a brushed stock motor did. We did away with dynamic timing because it was too complicated, fine. Now I say we find some way to seal the motors while still allowing for adjustable mechanical timing, so people don't have go through stators and rotors trying to find the hot combo.
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:58 PM   #117
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I'd also love to see some long-term consistency in the regs.

Seasonal approval of motors and batteries for the 17.5 class would be a great start. Let's say for Carpet Season all products for the 2012-2013 season must be approved by August 25th. Any product released or submitted after that point would be reviewed for approval for the FOLLOWING carpet season. This would totally eliminate the battery/motor/esc of the week debacle we currently face.

I would also suggest that once specifications are set for a class, they remain LOCKED-IN for at least two years. Minimizing frustration for newer or more casual racers is the goal here.

On another note, for too many years you'd attend a ROAR race, and ROAR had nearly ZERO presence at the event. That tended to make them look like a distant, hands-off beauracracy, that was far more concerned with the mfgs than the paying members. The RMT is an absolute blessing in this regard. Tech tools that are the same year after year leave very little room for fudging of the rules. Having ROAR officials to answer questions directly, and handle situations that may arise helps to quell controversy. It also gets ROAR out there interacting with the members. And as Martha Stewart would say "That's a good thing"
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:54 AM   #118
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Speed isn't killing the classes or the racing.
Driving skill along with car setup and tuning skills is and will always be part of racing. I don't care HOW you limit the "stock" class the fast guys will always be fast...

If you feel the need to create a class that removes the skill or lowers the skill level to meet the needs and desires of "some" then make a car that is cheap, has little to no adjustments, doesn't break, and looks reasonably like the real thing. Sounds kinda like the Traxxas Slash doesn't it?!?!?!?
Im not saying you're wrong but its very easy to not put yourself in someones shoes who is new to on road racing and ask them what is their view point about "stock". (Or on road racing in general).

Whenever I am approached by a newcomer in r/c for help, I try to rewind to my younger years of rc and what my concerns were, but of course it was very, very different 15/16 years ago!

Examples.

I think in some ways, wiper arm speed controls were a walk in the park to understand than the newest gen ESC Simple construction.

Then take a look at the first gen Tamiya 1/10th cars from the 1990s then look at the trf417 and tell me what looks simpler to put down and race.

However, I know you can't change dumb, and i'm not saying live in the past either.....

Jump in and swim, or sink?

Easier to sink when there is deeper water. Or newcomers are feeding themselves into the wrong class of racing? VTA looks to be expanding well for some.

Another element, not easy when the newcomer has already invested in their setup and its not right for them... talk about climbing a steep hill backwards
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Old 09-06-2012, 06:23 AM   #119
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Randy - I think you are missing the point, Stock is fine, the problem is the Pro drivers in the class. This for me is the core issue. So how would you get them out? How would you recommend to encourage them to run Pro Stock and stay out of Stock. I was simpling make the class so they can not run it because of sponsorship oblations. Most are pro drivers are pushed by the sponsorship to run stock, which we are back to the manufactures taking responsibility... Or do you not see that the Pro drivers in stock as an issue?
What is wrong with Pro drivers in stock? How is winning Stock an accomplishment when the better drivers have been removed from the mix? Not to mention the criteria of who is a "Pro" and who is not is somewhat arbitrary if one just looks at whether a person is sponsored or not. Do we really want to go down the road of quantifying how much sponsorship is acceptable vs. not? Do we then have the issue of mid to upper level drivers who aren't quite good enough for a full sponsorship choosing to pay for their own tires so they can still race the stock classes? Personally, I'd rather race and get my ass kicked by fast drivers. At least I have a decent chance of getting through the first turn without getting cleaned from behind.
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Old 09-06-2012, 06:45 AM   #120
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At least I have a decent chance of getting through the first turn without getting cleaned from behind.
You sure about that part?

I don't really care about someone being sponsored in my class. The only time I really care is if somone is dominating a class so well that it can take away from having any chance of winning. Now the only thing in Ernie's statement I agree with is if you have won a championship in the class why not move up? I know the 17.5 class is tight and the difference between making one mistake and not was the difference between making the b-main or the a-main unless you were one of the top 4 guys.

Now the other thing is if your in a class where the turn out is rather small to begin with I understand not moving up due to lack of turn out.
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