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Old 09-07-2012, 11:41 PM   #151
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I am a believer in something along these lines. If ROAR were to be a true sanctioning body in the manner I think they should/could be.. they (yes, as an entity) should try to figure out how to sanction races. Not talking about just regionals here.... As has been previously mentioned, some of the most prestigous races are not directly supported by ROAR. Get these events under the ROAR banner and not only will membership counts increase, but so might respect for ROAR as a true entity that is (and should be) the center if major organized rc racing in N.A.
Here is a wild idea... Why not include these races in as the part of the National Series...

Have a core of classes that is are the same at every event... And allow the event to have filler classes as they see fit...
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:48 PM   #152
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:38 AM   #153
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Perhaps I'm just lucky to have come into RC racing in Seattle, just as the hangar 30 program started up. Perhaps the onroad world is a dark and brutal place outside our oasis. But we must be doing something right. People are psyched to race, and we all pay our ROAR memberships, because we're a ROAR club.

I don't really think ROAR needs to offer value to the racer, directly. As Todd (PutAwayWet) mentioned above, ROAR offers value to our club purely based on insurance. Our club in turn offers value to us racers by putting together a rules package that covers the bases from keeping our national-level drivers entertained, to giving both TC and pan-car intermediates an appropriate level of challenge with close racing, a class for the greenhorns to work their way up to intermediate, and loaner cars to help bring in novices. All while letting us leverage our equipment investments season after season. We know when we show up, we're going to see smiling faces, hot on track action at all skill levels, and go home happy and impatient for the next race.

Most of us don't really care that much about big races, other than to cheer on the few that go and represent. ROAR national races could probably disappear completely, and our club would still thrive. But we would still be a ROAR club, because it provides insurance. Even the equipment approvals we could probably due without. I think Todd really hits the nail on the head. ROAR just needs to share the information to help other clubs thrive like ours.

What I've observed over the past few years is that what you need to keep racers engaged is:
- great racing. Too many classes works against this. You need to keep deep fields. Not everyone shows up to every race. Not everyone is capable of racing at the front. Not everyone can stay focused on one class.
- don't break the bank. Spec tires, roar approved blinky speedos, rules stability, and again deep fields, because the people with lower spec gear can still have fun if they're all in the same class.
- community. Racers need to talk to each other. Leadership needs to listen to the racers, and communicate with them. When all you have is a temporary track, people need to and will pitch in for setup and teardown. People need to have their buddies they look forward to pitting with. The old hats need to pass down knowledge and keep everyone learning.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that on the one hand, ROAR is vital, and on the other it's kind of irrelevant. It's far less important to me who the ROAR president is, than who my club leadership is. As long as the insurance and baseline rules are there, we can sort out the rest.

-Mike
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Old 09-08-2012, 11:19 PM   #154
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This would be for ONE class. You still would have Stock as it is today, it would be simply called Pro Stock. At what point do you toss out this thinking, when entries get down to what level??? 75, 50, 25.... for a national event... In 2011 you had around 150, 2012 you had less then 100 (93), how much more must it decline before you get off the sinking ship thinking?

You said "One of the quickest ways to destroy mfg interest in a class is to eliminate their ability to participate in it." - REALLY... Please explain what is going on with VTA which has been limited to Novak, just over the past year has been opened on the speedo to Speed Passion, and ROAR is running to keep up with the VTA rules. So why are companies like Tekin, LRP, Speed Passion, etc... are currently trying to get approved... How is this killing manufactures?

What you are people so against? How much more must we decrease entries before you are willing to trying something?

Look no one has all the answers, we need to be willing to try, evaluate and adjust. Everyone needs to be open and no not everyone will be happy with the some ideas, but everyone needs to be willing to give it a try and then draw a conclusion.

Let me share with you something that happened last year at a series race. Day light was running short (or it was rain was coming) and they wanted to get all the heats in. So they asked the VTA class (18 entries) if they would be willing to run all in one heat rather then 10 and 8.... but in sportsmanship they did agree to do it.... at the end of that race, NOT ONE DRIVER was bitching, 100% of the loved it. The point, sometimes we need to not rush to judgement, we need to try with an open mind and offer fair feedback.
On such a huge track they should run 30 VTA cars at once......

I argue that VTA would have more entries if the speedo and motor rules were loosened to allow other mfg's. They are rushing to get approved? Hardly! RobK's rules are simple and definitive,( and thank you Rob for being so specific). But the reality is that it wouldn't take much to kill the user updateable software features on any current speedo, yet NONE of the other esc/motor mfg's are rushing to provide the mkt with VTA legal gear. Why should they? What more proof do you need? If overly spec'd classes were the answer, then LRP, TEKIN and HobbyWing would be bending over backwards to get into VTA, yet oddly, they aren't...... And for further proof, the paved Nats would have had FAR more than ten entries in VTA, yet that is ALL they had. My big argument is that it's up to the sanctioning body to enact the "perception of fairness" not the mfg's. limitation of choice and tuning does turn many off to a class, regardless of YOUR perception.

Your citation of VTA merely strengthens my point. If racers really want to run in such a limited class, why aren't they ALL running the USVTA/USGT classes that already exist rather than whining to restrict 17.5? 17.5 is the new generation's stock. If it's too much for some, those individuals are welcome to run USVTA, or USGT. Why must we dumb down 17.5 to the same level? The feedback is proven already, VTA/GT racers run those classes, those that accept the challenge of a less restrictive class run 17.5, some man-up and run both . The appropriate class structure already exists, promote it as such. The folks that are too proud to run those classes will eventually become too proud to run a more restrictive 17.5 TC class as well. So according to reasoning, we then have to pare down Pro-stock to accommodate these same "we're too good for VTA, but 17.5 TC is too fast" drivers. Slower classes with more regulation are there for the taking. I feel the true problem is with people who want to race the "bigger" classes , but don't want to lose to those who put in the work to learn to be fast at a more difficult level. It doesn't matter what you do, the entry level classes become less prestigious, because they're the entry level classes. In the old days you stepped up because your skill increased from running those classes. Now the answer seems to be to keep lowering each class's standards. That's just sad IMHO.

I dunno. I'm just an individual who has watched the progression of the hobby for 25+ years, and has watched the ebb and flow of on-road.
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:37 AM   #155
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just to clarify...most companys didnt take USVTA/VTA/TA to any degree. They didnt see anything other than a basher class(Birds 09). But like any class that comes along and stays, the companys see a chance to tap into that market and supply things for that class(Traxxas Slash...lol...no everyone has a short course truck)

Team Associated is one of those that realize VTA. Hence the return of the TC4 Club Racer, advertised in VTA trim. They knew of the TC3/4 still winning races in this class, and figured it was a good move. As well as putting the Reedy Wolfpack 5000 25C lipo out there. Most battery co. are not doing 5000 anything. But the LRP side has been trying to get a LRP esc on the list for awhile now. Unfortunate some have been rejected. But they keep coming. Which makes me think they want to be part of the USVTA class.

Other companys are coming with new esc's to be tested and hopefully used incl...?????, sorry under gag order...but good for the USVTA class

I would have thought that by the Pav Nats being in the IL area the turnout would have been 20-30 deep. But after talking with different racers. They all feel the same way. If Im USVTA legal, and they have ROAR VTA cars, how is that fair...by comparing esc/motors....Im running a Novak SS and Novak Club esc with my 4000 Venom 30 C, he is running a Tekin and Revtech 25.5...or worst, Trinity DUO 3.5 with a Revtech 6000 60C lipo...on paper, it looks really bad for the USVTA car...so why bother?...then add the high entry. Its hard to make ppl believe that the USVTA formula is better than ROARs in the right hands. Thats 2 for 2 for those keeping score...

But however it plays out...the ROAR body will need to always be around. But it does need leadership and ppl that care about on-road racing. I think that the ROAR rules work for certain clubs/tracks, but for the masses, its USVTA
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:06 AM   #156
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just to clarify...most companys didnt take USVTA/VTA/TA to any degree. They didnt see anything other than a basher class(Birds 09). But like any class that comes along and stays, the companys see a chance to tap into that market and supply things for that class(Traxxas Slash...lol...no everyone has a short course truck)

Team Associated is one of those that realize VTA. Hence the return of the TC4 Club Racer, advertised in VTA trim. They knew of the TC3/4 still winning races in this class, and figured it was a good move. As well as putting the Reedy Wolfpack 5000 25C lipo out there. Most battery co. are not doing 5000 anything. But the LRP side has been trying to get a LRP esc on the list for awhile now. Unfortunate some have been rejected. But they keep coming. Which makes me think they want to be part of the USVTA class.

Other companys are coming with new esc's to be tested and hopefully used incl...?????, sorry under gag order...but good for the USVTA class

I would have thought that by the Pav Nats being in the IL area the turnout would have been 20-30 deep. But after talking with different racers. They all feel the same way. If Im USVTA legal, and they have ROAR VTA cars, how is that fair...by comparing esc/motors....Im running a Novak SS and Novak Club esc with my 4000 Venom 30 C, he is running a Tekin and Revtech 25.5...or worst, Trinity DUO 3.5 with a Revtech 6000 60C lipo...on paper, it looks really bad for the USVTA car...so why bother?...then add the high entry. Its hard to make ppl believe that the USVTA formula is better than ROARs in the right hands. Thats 2 for 2 for those keeping score...

But however it plays out...the ROAR body will need to always be around. But it does need leadership and ppl that care about on-road racing. I think that the ROAR rules work for certain clubs/tracks, but for the masses, its USVTA
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Eric running true USVTA car at the nats? I'm pretty sure it was a novak vta motor. Once again correct me if I am wrong on that. But i'm 99 percent sure Eric would have been legal at any race.

Just so we are all clear he won.
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:34 AM   #157
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Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Eric running true USVTA car at the nats? I'm pretty sure it was a novak vta motor. Once again correct me if I am wrong on that. But i'm 99 percent sure Eric would have been legal at any race.

Just so we are all clear he won.
very much so...he had one flaw, but nothing major. But thats was the plan to start. To come and win the Pav Nats with a USVTA car, like with Tony and the Carpet Nats.

But when your average VTA racers looks at the ROAR rules...it can be a little intimidating...example, and Im not picking, But Dirla is a good driver and he would run VTA at ROAR events with a Black Dimond, and the biggest best battery out there, still running Novak motor, but its a beast of a motor w/ all the bells and whistles ect.

Now in his defense, he ran what he had already, didnt get full USVTA legal to my Enduro.

So Im very VERY happy EG won, but he is good with the wheel.
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Old 09-09-2012, 05:49 PM   #158
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On such a huge track they should run 30 VTA cars at once......

I argue that VTA would have more entries if the speedo and motor rules were loosened to allow other mfg's. They are rushing to get approved? Hardly! RobK's rules are simple and definitive,( and thank you Rob for being so specific). But the reality is that it wouldn't take much to kill the user updateable software features on any current speedo, yet NONE of the other esc/motor mfg's are rushing to provide the mkt with VTA legal gear. Why should they? What more proof do you need? If overly spec'd classes were the answer, then LRP, TEKIN and HobbyWing would be bending over backwards to get into VTA, yet oddly, they aren't...... And for further proof, the paved Nats would have had FAR more than ten entries in VTA, yet that is ALL they had. My big argument is that it's up to the sanctioning body to enact the "perception of fairness" not the mfg's. limitation of choice and tuning does turn many off to a class, regardless of YOUR perception.

Your citation of VTA merely strengthens my point. If racers really want to run in such a limited class, why aren't they ALL running the USVTA/USGT classes that already exist rather than whining to restrict 17.5? 17.5 is the new generation's stock. If it's too much for some, those individuals are welcome to run USVTA, or USGT. Why must we dumb down 17.5 to the same level? The feedback is proven already, VTA/GT racers run those classes, those that accept the challenge of a less restrictive class run 17.5, some man-up and run both . The appropriate class structure already exists, promote it as such. The folks that are too proud to run those classes will eventually become too proud to run a more restrictive 17.5 TC class as well. So according to reasoning, we then have to pare down Pro-stock to accommodate these same "we're too good for VTA, but 17.5 TC is too fast" drivers. Slower classes with more regulation are there for the taking. I feel the true problem is with people who want to race the "bigger" classes , but don't want to lose to those who put in the work to learn to be fast at a more difficult level. It doesn't matter what you do, the entry level classes become less prestigious, because they're the entry level classes. In the old days you stepped up because your skill increased from running those classes. Now the answer seems to be to keep lowering each class's standards. That's just sad IMHO.

I dunno. I'm just an individual who has watched the progression of the hobby for 25+ years, and has watched the ebb and flow of on-road.
This is pointless.....

We agree to disagree.

So back the question:

What can ROAR do (In your opinion) over 12 months to improve membership and entries?
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:07 PM   #159
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This is pointless.....

We agree to disagree.

So back the question:

What can ROAR do (In your opinion) over 12 months to improve membership and entries?
I'm still saying it's going to be hold a National Points series to make things interesting.
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:31 PM   #160
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I'm still saying it's going to be hold a National Points series to make things interesting.
On issue I hear over and over, the RMT is short on resources in vacation time...
While this is a long shot, why not use other big races (including carpet) to crown the "National Champ" of the Nolan Cup?
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:07 PM   #161
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On issue I hear over and over, the RMT is short on resources in vacation time...
While this is a long shot, why not use other big races (including carpet) to crown the "National Champ" of the Nolan Cup?
I'm in......Do I win the first one due to the name? Btw cause it wouldn't be ROAR then.

Btw if you were to setup the race based on certain things there should be very little to RMT costs of travel. It would mean a dedicated Regional Rep but it could be done for a lot less. So there are 12 regions. Run the series in the odds the first year. Run even regions the second year. So 6 races a race every two months. The regional rep would be the RMT or have to find a ROAR certified member to fill in...Just like us with marshalling. If the single RMT were to check the motors in. Then run tech like normal RMT would. You use the host track's normal announcer. Then you rely on the host track to do some tech work....I'm pretty sure there was only one RMT sitting in tech at the Nat's. The only thing I could even remotely think of needing an RMT for would be to put people in the penalty box. But if you were to keep it regional with RMT and not fly people across the US to do so it would keep costs down. I don't mean to be rude here but tech'ing in a car isn't rocket science it either passes or doesn't.
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:23 PM   #162
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I'm in......Do I win the first one due to the name? Btw cause it wouldn't be ROAR then.

Btw if you were to setup the race based on certain things there should be very little to RMT costs of travel. It would mean a dedicated Regional Rep but it could be done for a lot less. So there are 12 regions. Run the series in the odds the first year. Run even regions the second year. So 6 races a race every two months. The regional rep would be the RMT or have to find a ROAR certified member to fill in...Just like us with marshalling. If the single RMT were to check the motors in. Then run tech like normal RMT would. You use the host track's normal announcer. Then you rely on the host track to do some tech work....I'm pretty sure there was only one RMT sitting in tech at the Nat's. The only thing I could even remotely think of needing an RMT for would be to put people in the penalty box. But if you were to keep it regional with RMT and not fly people across the US to do so it would keep costs down. I don't mean to be rude here but tech'ing in a car isn't rocket science it either passes or doesn't.
Interesting...

So let me see if I have this correct:
2013 - Offroad - Even
2013 - OnRoad - Odd

2014 - Offroad - Odd
2014 - OnRoad - Even
etc

To add to this, you could have the Regional Director for the region the race occurs, as the Race Director, Supporting could be 1 other Regional Director from another Region (normally just one away for cost control)....

Interesting proposal....
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:08 PM   #163
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Cool

I know this would never happen, but how cool would it be if ...

Instead of creating more work for ROAR
Have them work only as sanctioning body with Races that have been successful over the years

IIC, Snowbirds, TZGP, US Indoor Champs, etc
Successful National events from the past could be renamed Winter Nats (Indoor), Summer Nats (Outdoor) Rotate host sites to those that drew over 200 entries, and know how to build a show

Each & all events carry same point system for 12th Mod & Sedan Mod only
Stock & all other classes are just wins for the event, no points chase for stock champ

Sorta like a bigger version of the Epic Triple Crown from back in the day

We could Crown a Real National Champ, as the Big Dogs go to all these races anyway, would be exciting to follow the series throughout the season

No Roar RMT fees, let the events go on as they have, most already follow Roar guidelines

Just a thought
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:10 PM   #164
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Interesting...

So let me see if I have this correct:
2013 - Offroad - Even
2013 - OnRoad - Odd

2014 - Offroad - Odd
2014 - OnRoad - Even
etc

To add to this, you could have the Regional Director for the region the race occurs, as the Race Director, Supporting could be 1 other Regional Director from another Region (normally just one away for cost control)....

Interesting proposal....
I know there are usually people who are more than willing to help out with out having their expenses paid. But correct me if I'm wrong in my theory and maybe a regional director would chime in. If you ran two races a year(assuming you had a nitro series) would that over extend you? Cause there is zero reason in most races I have seen to have it be a four day event except maybe to tech in motors. I know for on-road you could do a combo of three events asphalt and three carpet. You could do 3 out door and three indoor too for off-road. I think you would bring more attendance across the states. Not just asphalt in Cali.

This way you have one big race a month. Then just don't step on the toes of the IIC/Birds/Cleveland or try to incorporate them. Just a thought.

See above post for agreed statement
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:50 AM   #165
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This is pointless.....

We agree to disagree.

So back the question:

What can ROAR do (In your opinion) over 12 months to improve membership and entries?
As mentioned previously, once a season product approvals, and some long term stability built into the rules would help.

ROAR really can't do a whole lot to improve membership/race entries. The racer pool is way smaller in On-Road, and therefore On-Road races have fewer entries. You don't see this issue with the Off-Road community, because they still have a broad base of racers.

The key is to get more people into the local tracks. Let the local tracks promote ROAR, and racers will tend to gravitate towards ROAR.

If on-road is going to "be saved" it has to start grassroots style, and move up the system.
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