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Old 09-07-2012, 05:29 PM   #136
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Just tossing this one out there.... Why not for stock , Have a spec motor and speedo ? Have the manufacturers bid on it through ROAR, and then spec it for say 2 years. If you want to run a stock class at the Regionals or Nats... you need XXXX combo. And ROAR can get 2 or 3 bucks out of each sale....

Does'nt this work great for the ETS series ?
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:40 PM   #137
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I agree on the move up, move up to Pro Stock.... I personally think the top 5 or 10 need to move up... Not 1....
Jeez Barry if you don't want to run with me anymore just say so.

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Everyone (this is to everyone - just referencing Randy's post...)

Just sharing, but at the 2012 nationals the A-main had only 2 or 3 drivers that would been able to compete in Stock or Pro Stock.... and maybe 1 driver in 2011...
In reference to that comment based on sponsor ship technically there were drivers in the B-main that would have been kicked out and wouldn't have been able to run in 17.5 by that theory.

What I find interesting is it doesn't seem anyone is willing to hop in here and say they would like to be president. That should say something right there. No one wants to jump in here and say I'd like to be president or say that they want anything to change. Now yes I understand this isn't the ROAR website but I would figure someone who would want to help would be here listening to racers here too.
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:50 PM   #138
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Nolan,

There are plenty of people that could be president, but will not throw their hats in... Lots of reason for that.

I qualify, but cannot dedicate the time to it.

EA qualifies.. but he knows better :>

There are stalkers too..
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:08 PM   #139
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Just tossing this one out there.... Why not for stock , Have a spec motor and speedo ? Have the manufacturers bid on it through ROAR, and then spec it for say 2 years. If you want to run a stock class at the Regionals or Nats... you need XXXX combo. And ROAR can get 2 or 3 bucks out of each sale....

Does'nt this work great for the ETS series ?
That was my proposal a few pages back... I'm guess that stock could be had for say 20K for the motor, 15K for the speedo and 5K for the spec body... per year, which will go a long way to covering the RMT costs. Plus the more entries the more funds they will have to cover the RMT costs.... But the cost will be a number of manufactures not happy about this and ROAR does have a very strong opinion of being vendor neutral...
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:10 PM   #140
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Jeez Barry if you don't want to run with me anymore just say so.
The part you missed is I'm one that would be running Pro Stock... If they let me in....
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:13 PM   #141
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Not sure this would work, but what about a series to define the national champ based on points from the series of races? No not a ranking system, that is a different discussion all together... The RTM cost and time on the RTM team would be hard...
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:33 PM   #142
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Even I know the rule was changed back to 8.4 volts because everyone was charging them to 8.5 volts and this is dangerous!

Look I know we're always looking for that little bit extra but one tenth of a volt is not going to make a difference. The original rule for charging lipo's was 8.40 volts, but a tolerance of +/-.04 volts was put in to make up for differences in volt meters. How was the rule interpreted by racers? The limit is 8.44 volts.

I was doing tech at a regional event and one racer came up before his heat to check the battery. It came up 8.46 volts. I told him sorry but you're out of spec. He yelled at me saying ROAR has to start approving chargers. No, you have to make sure you charge your battery right!

The limit on battery voltage is a safety issue! while lipo's are much safer than in the past there is still a real possibility of these batteries going on fire, and a lipo fire is not pretty. ROAR did do research into this and all the lipo manufacturers said the safe limit is 4.2 volts per cell. It's up to racers to follow this and make sure their chargers aren't over charging their batteries.

And no artificial means of heating the battery either!
I hate to disagree with you Jim but please show me where on the ROAR website it says this. I am on the roar website right now. The rulebook is from 2010. If you click on "rules updates", there is a rules update from 2011 that states 4.25 1s and 8.5 2s. The only updates since then are about short course motors and bodies and the electric chassis update. So as far as I can tell from ROAR's own website, it's still 4.25 per cell.

As for it not being an advantage, I can tell you that is absolute BS. 4.25 vs 4.20 in a WGT is a full tenth per lap.
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:12 PM   #143
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I hate to disagree with you Jim but please show me where on the ROAR website it says this. I am on the roar website right now. The rulebook is from 2010. If you click on "rules updates", there is a rules update from 2011 that states 4.25 1s and 8.5 2s. The only updates since then are about short course motors and bodies and the electric chassis update. So as far as I can tell from ROAR's own website, it's still 4.25 per cell.

As for it not being an advantage, I can tell you that is absolute BS. 4.25 vs 4.20 in a WGT is a full tenth per lap.
It is in one of the supporting documents, the limit on 2S is 8.4. It was made very clear at the nats....

Found it: Link Page 4....
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:27 PM   #144
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but what about a series to define the national champ based on points from the series of races?
I am a believer in something along these lines. If ROAR were to be a true sanctioning body in the manner I think they should/could be.. they (yes, as an entity) should try to figure out how to sanction races. Not talking about just regionals here.... As has been previously mentioned, some of the most prestigous races are not directly supported by ROAR. Get these events under the ROAR banner and not only will membership counts increase, but so might respect for ROAR as a true entity that is (and should be) the center if major organized rc racing in N.A.
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:32 PM   #145
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here is an idea 2 classes for electric onroad
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:43 PM   #146
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It is in one of the supporting documents, the limit on 2S is 8.4. It was made very clear at the nats....

Found it: Link Page 4....
That's dated 2009. The rules update on the site is from 2011. So if you didn't know otherwise, which would you believe to be current?

scroll down to the battery approval update:

http://www.roarracing.com/?cat=26
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:20 PM   #147
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That's dated 2009. The rules update on the site is from 2011. So if you didn't know otherwise, which would you believe to be current?

scroll down to the battery approval update:

http://www.roarracing.com/?cat=26
Well ask anyone who attended the Super Nats and the On-Road Nationals last month. 8.40 not just 8.4 and 4.20 not 4.2. I have a pm from a Rob King a member of ROAR saying the Voltage as well. Trust me there were plenty of people who came up and did the walk of shame back to the pits due to an 8.41 battery pack and was told you don't get any run off if it was in the car and it was 8.41 you missed that qualifier or main. There was zero tolerance on the issue too.

I agree with you too as I read the website and assumed I could run 8.5v's at the Nationals. Hense If you read the start I was in a conversation with Ron about how there need to be updates to the ROAR website so we all understand. This is also why we are scratching our heads on how ROAR can spend so much on a website and not have it up to date. They don't need to print a book but have one posted for download or available for purchase. I'm all about ROAR covering their expenses. I'm all for ROAR I can't state that enough. I just want to be able to read what the current rules are and discuss a way to help build on-road racing. I mean I don't get it. IIC huge, Cleveland big. Yet carpet tracks closed like crazy. Maybe we do need to learn from the Europeans. ETS races...travel a certain area and crown a champ at the end. I mean even Paul jumps in on a race.

So why not have ROAR hold a USA Race. (Yes it was suggested earlier). Copy the ETS series and hold it in a gym across the USA have a race in each Region and a points series to win. I mean half the tracks are makeshift. Roll the Carpet and call it a day. I mean that would be awesome in my opinion. It would for sure make the races a lot more meaningful. Then hold a USA Championship Race every year. On-Road Carpet Nats etc.....

Copy with Asphalt. I personally feel that if you have a Nationals points series you would have people who would travel around and attend and if you build it up more and have more of a National Series where you can see the big boys race at your local area and your turn out and membership should go up. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:43 PM   #148
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What would prevent the manufacturer from just selling different complete motors each with a unique rotor? Rotors are cheaper than complete motors...
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The manufacturers will have to work along side ROAR, period.

Sealing the motors is not necessary. Maintenance should be done. No tuning rotors, fine...but don't shorten the motors life by sealing.
Good points, leave 'em open cans, spec a single rotor size (diameter and length), AND a maximum gauss rating. Then run 'em through tech........
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:11 PM   #149
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That was my proposal a few pages back... I'm guess that stock could be had for say 20K for the motor, 15K for the speedo and 5K for the spec body... per year, which will go a long way to covering the RMT costs. Plus the more entries the more funds they will have to cover the RMT costs.... But the cost will be a number of manufactures not happy about this and ROAR does have a very strong opinion of being vendor neutral...
Why must we SPEC everything? There's no need to spec ESC's, batteries, motors, and ESPECIALLY not bodies. Once a season approval dates eliminates the motor/esc/battery of the month issues and still allows all the mfg's to participate. One of the quickest ways to destroy mfg interest in a class is to eliminate their ability to participate in it. If everything is approved before the start of the season, and you buy a motor, you don't have to worry that Trinity will release a new one in 10 days that's faster because it won't be allowed until the following season. ROAR tests ESC's to ensure they're all fairly matched, so same deal there.

Specifying equipment to that level removes choice from the equation. There are some mfg's that do not build the highest quality products, spec'ing that mfg for a season forces people to buy junk just to participate in a class. Then next season a new MFG gets the nod and bang! We get to buy all new equipment again. Just seems like overkill to me, but it might be good for the mfg's because they could just build cheap crap for the spec class, since everyone would have to buy it for a season.

And spec'ing bodies is a whole different issue. Different drivers prefer different handling characteristics. The body plays a HUGE role in handling.
There are situations such as longer tracks, higher bite tracks, etc. that place different demands on a car's aero package. Why limit this? Bodies aren't that expensive, and last quite awhile. Why start changing the chassis set-up on a car that's close to perfect when you know going to a LTC-R is gonna give that bit more steering your car lacks with a Mazda6 on it?
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:38 PM   #150
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Why must we SPEC everything? There's no need to spec ESC's, batteries, motors, and ESPECIALLY not bodies. Once a season approval dates eliminates the motor/esc/battery of the month issues and still allows all the mfg's to participate. One of the quickest ways to destroy mfg interest in a class is to eliminate their ability to participate in it. If everything is approved before the start of the season, and you buy a motor, you don't have to worry that Trinity will release a new one in 10 days that's faster because it won't be allowed until the following season. ROAR tests ESC's to ensure they're all fairly matched, so same deal there.

Specifying equipment to that level removes choice from the equation. There are some mfg's that do not build the highest quality products, spec'ing that mfg for a season forces people to buy junk just to participate in a class. Then next season a new MFG gets the nod and bang! We get to buy all new equipment again. Just seems like overkill to me, but it might be good for the mfg's because they could just build cheap crap for the spec class, since everyone would have to buy it for a season.

And spec'ing bodies is a whole different issue. Different drivers prefer different handling characteristics. The body plays a HUGE role in handling.
There are situations such as longer tracks, higher bite tracks, etc. that place different demands on a car's aero package. Why limit this? Bodies aren't that expensive, and last quite awhile. Why start changing the chassis set-up on a car that's close to perfect when you know going to a LTC-R is gonna give that bit more steering your car lacks with a Mazda6 on it?
This would be for ONE class. You still would have Stock as it is today, it would be simply called Pro Stock. At what point do you toss out this thinking, when entries get down to what level??? 75, 50, 25.... for a national event... In 2011 you had around 150, 2012 you had less then 100 (93), how much more must it decline before you get off the sinking ship thinking?

You said "One of the quickest ways to destroy mfg interest in a class is to eliminate their ability to participate in it." - REALLY... Please explain what is going on with VTA which has been limited to Novak, just over the past year has been opened on the speedo to Speed Passion, and ROAR is running to keep up with the VTA rules. So why are companies like Tekin, LRP, Speed Passion, etc... are currently trying to get approved... How is this killing manufactures?

What you are people so against? How much more must we decrease entries before you are willing to trying something?

Look no one has all the answers, we need to be willing to try, evaluate and adjust. Everyone needs to be open and no not everyone will be happy with the some ideas, but everyone needs to be willing to give it a try and then draw a conclusion.

Let me share with you something that happened last year at a series race. Day light was running short (or it was rain was coming) and they wanted to get all the heats in. So they asked the VTA class (18 entries) if they would be willing to run all in one heat rather then 10 and 8.... but in sportsmanship they did agree to do it.... at the end of that race, NOT ONE DRIVER was bitching, 100% of the loved it. The point, sometimes we need to not rush to judgement, we need to try with an open mind and offer fair feedback.
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