R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-06-2005, 04:44 AM   #1
Tech Master
 
BrainTeased's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,342
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default battery Punch and Tray Q's

Hi guys how are ya all?

i've got a problem here that i wanna learn about.
what will preserve battery punch to stay consistant the longest,
charging at 5 amps or 7 amps?
now i know 7 amps will give me the most punch but im also thinking it will also drop the runtime or average voltage quicker? im just curious which charge method will allow me to have a more consistant punch over the 6 min heat period.

now about Trays
there are 2 trays im interested in, one being the much more racing tray and the other being the novak smart tray.
from my understanding the much more tray does not have a auto cut off feature like the novak does. Now i was wondering how is the much more tray atcually equallising each of your cells if it does not cut off a cell at a certian point? and only cutting off at 0 volts. meaning the pack will only be equallised when they are all at 0 volts?

All comments appreciated guys

Cheers
__________________
www.feralbatteries.com.au
BrainTeased is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2005, 07:33 AM   #2
V12
Tech Elite
 
V12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,641
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Regarding charging method this is a good question but I think itīs dependent if you run stock or modified. I am usually always charging @ 6 amps as I think this is a good balance between runtime and punch. Also this shouldnīt hurt the life of the cells too much. Also I try charging as close as possible to a heat. This is also much more easy with 6 amps. I know all of my batteries are charging in about 4100 to 4200 with my Protrak. This means they need 41 to 42 minutes. If Iīm not in time I can change easily from there.
Another thing to consistant discharge has to be the typ of cell and quality of matching. From what I have heard from other racers is there is not such a big difference for maybe the first 5 charging cycles. But after that some are going out of match what feels inconsistent on the track. I had other packs but my Team Orion are working perfect until now.
Regarding equalizing there may be different opinions. I keep away from everything discharging down to 0V. This may be working for factory drivers who donīt have to pay for their batteries but Iīm pretty shure itīs the best way for killing them. So a no to the Much More unit even as they have some other good things.
Regarding the Novak I donīt know what to say. I wanted one in the beginning but never was available. But I heard from some guys (I think even on this forum) the equalizing process isnīt really the same for all cells. One cell I think the first one shuts of first independent of the pack. I donīt know if this was a problem only with the first units and was fixed later but it makes you wonder if it really works that good.
I am using a completely different equalizer board from Robitronic since about 2 or 3 years and I have to say it works perfectly. Itīs the only board I found what equalizes the cells really the same. Downside is it discharges with 1 amp only so the best way is a discharge with 20 or 30 amps before until 0.9V per cell. When equalizing this is done until about 0.8 V but then it doesnīt shut off but keep the cell at this voltage. I leave the battery at least 3 hours but also up to half a day on the tray. This way the cells are completely empty and even packs out of match are really equalized again. This doesnīt say there is no need for rematching but at least the cells are on the same level before charging.
__________________
Classic RC - http://classicrc.wordpress.com/
V12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2005, 01:52 PM   #3
Tech Elite
 
Cole Trickle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Denmark / Europe
Posts: 2,571
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by V12
I am using a completely different equalizer board from Robitronic since about 2 or 3 years and I have to say it works perfectly. Itīs the only board I found what equalizes the cells really the same. Downside is it discharges with 1 amp only so the best way is a discharge with 20 or 30 amps before until 0.9V per cell. When equalizing this is done until about 0.8 V but then it doesnīt shut off but keep the cell at this voltage. I leave the battery at least 3 hours but also up to half a day on the tray. This way the cells are completely empty and even packs out of match are really equalized again. This doesnīt say there is no need for rematching but at least the cells are on the same level before charging.
I'm doing the same thing, works great
__________________
Schumacher Mi5 - Sanwa MT-4 / RX-462 / KO Propo PDS-2123 - Nosram 5600 X-treme Saddle Pack - LRP SPX Zero/X12 17,5 - Nosram Stealth Touch Evolution - MAAS SPS 9250
Cole Trickle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2005, 02:16 PM   #4
V12
Tech Elite
 
V12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,641
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Cole Trickle
I'm doing the same thing, works great
Good to hear that.
__________________
Classic RC - http://classicrc.wordpress.com/
V12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2005, 02:29 AM   #5
Tech Master
 
BrainTeased's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,342
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Thanks for the input V12
and embarrassnig as it is im asking this regarding 540 class racing but fast or slow I i wanna win!

so matched packs get unmatched in about 5 cycles? thats not good!! i was just planning on getting matched packs soon. As i really want that constant discharge curve!
__________________
www.feralbatteries.com.au
BrainTeased is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2005, 03:03 AM   #6
Tech Elite
 
Cole Trickle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Denmark / Europe
Posts: 2,571
Default

Not that I have done anything controlled measurement, but I tend to say a matched pack is better, also after 5 runs - at least, it's not as unmatched, as a pack bought unmatched.

Anyway, an equalizer WILL prevent cells from getting too far from each other.

Which makes me think of, it seems like it always the two outer most cells, that are discharged first, equals, have less capasity. Would it be an advantage, to rebuild the pack for each 10 runs, moving the other two cells to th middle?
__________________
Schumacher Mi5 - Sanwa MT-4 / RX-462 / KO Propo PDS-2123 - Nosram 5600 X-treme Saddle Pack - LRP SPX Zero/X12 17,5 - Nosram Stealth Touch Evolution - MAAS SPS 9250
Cole Trickle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2005, 07:08 AM   #7
V12
Tech Elite
 
V12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,641
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

BrainTeased
Iīm not saying all matched packs get unmatched in about 5 cycles but some brands seems to do that more than others. It has to do how good is the matching process and the treatment before. Also itīs very important equalizing the cells before charging.
As Cole Trickle said, an equalizer WILL prevent cells from getting too far from each other.
Another thing is do you want maximum performance out of the packs or do you care also for lifetime?
I know some guys here are charging their packs at 9-10 amps. This way you will have the highest voltage out of the packs. But I think you will have to replace them after maybe half a year then. Otherwise stay at 6 amps. And we never use repeak just charging in time.
As you race 540 motors I think very good cooling is important.
These motors donīt like heat as they are not very efficient anyway. Also car setup is important. Try running the car as smooth as possible. This way you will have less load on the motor what creates heat. Best is using a oneway and forget that brake. Also no dragbrake with the ESC settings. That also creates heat.
__________________
Classic RC - http://classicrc.wordpress.com/
V12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2005, 07:14 AM   #8
Tech Elite
 
Cole Trickle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Denmark / Europe
Posts: 2,571
Default

Yep, and check the drivetrain for drag
__________________
Schumacher Mi5 - Sanwa MT-4 / RX-462 / KO Propo PDS-2123 - Nosram 5600 X-treme Saddle Pack - LRP SPX Zero/X12 17,5 - Nosram Stealth Touch Evolution - MAAS SPS 9250
Cole Trickle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2005, 08:44 AM   #9
Tech Master
 
RCNitroDude999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Galveston Island
Posts: 1,660
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

would any of yall know if you can hurt a pack's performance or life by discharging at 20amps, even though it was matched at 30amps?
RCNitroDude999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2005, 08:53 AM   #10
V12
Tech Elite
 
V12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,641
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

I donīt think so.
My Protrak also discharges with 20 amps only but I think this is OK. I think itīs way more important what you do with the cells after discharging.
__________________
Classic RC - http://classicrc.wordpress.com/
V12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2005, 02:31 AM   #11
Tech Master
 
BrainTeased's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,342
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Thanks V12
well with my old batteries i dont mind charging them at 9-10 amps if i could haha but my cdc can only go up to 7 amps which i may try next club meet with new cells that i will get i would prefer to have a more reliable/long life span.
i will also try to spend a few hours when i can to try and make the car even more free

thanks for ya time and input V12

and you too cole trickle
__________________
www.feralbatteries.com.au
BrainTeased is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2005, 03:08 AM   #12
Tech Elite
 
Lonestar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,364
Trader Rating: 13 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Cole Trickle
Which makes me think of, it seems like it always the two outer most cells, that are discharged first, equals, have less capasity.
It seems to be true, especially when you use PK plugs soldered directly to the cell (ie without a bar in between). The plugs heats up due to the higher resistance (than hardwiring), and the heat kills the outer cells.

Brainteased: do you want to gain punch? Hardwiring is will help (if it's allowed in your class). It DOES make a difference, but it sure is a logistics PITA, especially if you aren't a seasoned racer... you have to decide for yourself if it's worth it.

Paul
__________________
When the flag drops, the BS stops.

The train stops at the train station. The bus stops at the bus station. In my office I have a workstation.
Lonestar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2005, 03:09 AM   #13
Tech Elite
 
Lonestar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,364
Trader Rating: 13 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Lonestar
It seems to be true, especially when you use PK plugs soldered directly to the cell (ie without a bar in between). The plugs heats up due to the higher resistance (than hardwiring), and the heat kills the outer cells.

Brainteased: do you want to gain punch? Hardwiring is will help (if it's allowed in your class). It DOES make a difference, but it sure is a logistics PITA, especially if you aren't a seasoned racer... you have to decide for yourself if it's worth it.

Paul
Let me just add a comment... it's worth it if you can drive you car without hitting boards (or at least not more than 2-3 times per heat)... else practice your driving first and forget hardwiring

Paul
__________________
When the flag drops, the BS stops.

The train stops at the train station. The bus stops at the bus station. In my office I have a workstation.
Lonestar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2005, 03:19 AM   #14
Tech Elite
 
Cole Trickle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Denmark / Europe
Posts: 2,571
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Lonestar
It seems to be true, especially when you use PK plugs soldered directly to the cell (ie without a bar in between). The plugs heats up due to the higher resistance (than hardwiring), and the heat kills the outer cells.
I dont know what a PK plug is... I'm using plugs like these:



They go into tubes like these, which I've soldered directly to the battery:



I'm not convinced that these will heat up, actually the battery bars heat up a lot more
__________________
Schumacher Mi5 - Sanwa MT-4 / RX-462 / KO Propo PDS-2123 - Nosram 5600 X-treme Saddle Pack - LRP SPX Zero/X12 17,5 - Nosram Stealth Touch Evolution - MAAS SPS 9250
Cole Trickle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2005, 03:47 AM   #15
Tech Master
 
BrainTeased's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,342
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Lonestar
It seems to be true, especially when you use PK plugs soldered directly to the cell (ie without a bar in between). The plugs heats up due to the higher resistance (than hardwiring), and the heat kills the outer cells.

Brainteased: do you want to gain punch? Hardwiring is will help (if it's allowed in your class). It DOES make a difference, but it sure is a logistics PITA, especially if you aren't a seasoned racer... you have to decide for yourself if it's worth it.

Paul
you guys talking about the ESC connection to the battery?
__________________
www.feralbatteries.com.au
BrainTeased is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Most punch battery mac853 Radio and Electronics 14 11-03-2007 09:48 PM
Victor Engineering Battery Zapper - REGAIN that lost punch !! jammin jim R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 5 08-16-2006 09:22 PM
Help: Is the Battery Tray for the 3pj & 3pk the same? wrxnfx Electric On-Road 2 06-09-2006 11:02 AM
Improve battery "Punch" discus18 Electric On-Road 37 01-19-2004 07:09 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 03:06 PM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net