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Old 07-06-2012, 01:44 PM   #1
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Default Point & Shoot vs Swoop

PnS vs Swoop

In on-road, which style do you think is better? Why?

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Old 07-06-2012, 01:47 PM   #2
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I think: http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...ggressive.html
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:56 PM   #3
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Half that thread was talking about ignoring a guy that made a pretty good point about Rheinard's driving.

Everybody wants to say smooth is always faster. But is that really true in all cases? When I watch mod sedan on carpet, with all that motor, it sure seems like guys are driving in deep and driving out hard.

I also see people talk about how smooth is easier to be consistent. I actually find the opposite to be true. Smooth driving requires a lot of rhythm, and you have to be very precise with your turn-in points otherwise you'll tap. And with smooth driving, once you commit to a line, it's very hard to correct out of a mistake.

The PnS style, you drive to a spot on the track and then drive to the next spot. If you pick a bad line, you're usually going straight rather than trying to hold a tight arc, so you can wiggle out of it and adjust.

These are just my observations. I noticed how everybody seems to talk about PnS with such disdain, but some of the most successful drivers in the US have used this style very effectively.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:09 PM   #4
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In TC, I think PnS has many advantages, and particularly on tight and high bite tracks. I agree that PnS may actually be an easier driving style. For example, if you purposely drive in hard you somewhat expect the car to get a little loose and are therefore ready for it. As opposed to a smoother style where you'd still like to drive on the edge, but the break-loose point is often a fine line and if it snaps can often lead to an undesired, and unexpected, situation. Touring cars have so much forward grip with all four (or at least three) tires pulling, that PnS can work well. The lateral grip is the problem on TCs, it's not forward grip. I personally drive smoother (I believe) than aggressive, but I often pay the price if I initiate a corner incorrectly. Pan car is a different story, especially single cell and higher turn motors where momentum is king.

I essentially just reiterated what you said, but in a much less elegant way.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:14 PM   #5
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I would typically say that a smooth line is best for on road. If you know how to drive well it is certainly faster. However this style doesn't always work if you are in a position battle with another car. If you are swinging out wide before a corner, someone is going to just dive under you and hard brake. You are absolutely going to have to either slow down to their level or go around them which ruins your line anyways. To hold off another car you will need to stay a bit off of the optimal line but that depends on how close the other car is behind you. In general a smooth line where you apex or near apex the corners properly is going to be the best way to drive as long as you aren't battling for position. If you are trying to pass someone or hold them off then it may be a necessary tactic. You scrub off far too much speed in point and shoot but that's not an issue if you are holding someone else up with you. Point and shoot is really only truly useful in off road as an overall driving technique and even then mostly in 2wd.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredswain View Post
I would typically say that a smooth line is best for on road. If you know how to drive well it is certainly faster. However this style doesn't always work if you are in a position battle with another car. If you are swinging out wide before a corner, someone is going to just dive under you and hard brake. You are absolutely going to have to either slow down to their level or go around them which ruins your line anyways. To hold off another car you will need to stay a bit off of the optimal line but that depends on how close the other car is behind you. In general a smooth line where you apex or near apex the corners properly is going to be the best way to drive as long as you aren't battling for position. If you are trying to pass someone or hold them off then it may be a necessary tactic. You scrub off far too much speed in point and shoot but that's not an issue if you are holding someone else up with you. Point and shoot is really only truly useful in off road as an overall driving technique and even then mostly in 2wd.
I don't disagree, per se, but I think the argument for smooth breaks down a bit when you add more motor. At least when you're talking about touring cars with grip... It seems like anything you lose in scrubbing speed can be made up by getting in/out of the corner by leveraging brakes and motor.

Spec pan car classes certainly seem to benefit from smooth, but mod 1/12, I dunno...

You make an interesting observation about blocking a line when you're smooth. And also, can you really pass someone driving smooth? Aren't most passes these days about getting under someone and beating them to the corner?
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:51 PM   #7
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Personally, In TC, I think that smooth driving is better suited for qualifying and high speed tracks. Point and shoot is better for racing and tighter layouts. Try running smooth in an A Main at a National Level event, you will get demolished by the cars driving point and shoot.

Neither style is particularly faster lap in, lap out, however point and shoot allows you to defend your position better and attack easier.

Back in the one-way days we all ran smooth lines and high corner speed, however, once the spool was introduced and we learned how much harder we could drive into corners, it kind of changed the driving style with TC's. Nowadays, if you don't drive point and shoot, it is really hard to keep up. One of the last people that I have seen recently drive smooth successfully is Rick Howart.

With Pan cars, smooth is typically preferred, but if you look at Keven Hebert, he is driving 12th Scale point to point with a ton of horsepower and it was fast enough to TQ and win the nats. It is truly a sight to see.
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:08 PM   #8
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For high-speed sweeper tracks or high-bite surfaces, you need to turn in early and get the car set on its suspension to really grip without scrubbing speed. That is what some would call the "swoop" method, and is most easily learned from doing oval racing where you live and die by corner speed. The trick is to have the car ease itself into the corner and get its outside suspension compressed long before you get there, so one would try to turn in just a little bit a long time before you get to the actual corner, progressively adding steering throw to turn in fully, then adjust where you will clip the apex with the throttle instead of the steering. If you just "twitch" the car into the corner you will lose energy and time, which are the two things you can never get back.
The distance at which you should start your turn-in varies by the car, and narrow tracks donít give you a lot of room to play with, but the principle stays the same.
On the other hand, in the tight confines of a narrow track with a loose surface, point-and-shoot may be needed if you donít have enough grip to be both turning and accelerating at the same time. The method of shooting apexes and manually rotating the car can be hard to learn (at least for me) after learning to drive to conserve corner speed. For instance, in running rubber-tire Touring Car, your best option on a lower-grip surface may be to accelerate hard, brake hard, then roll at what seems like an agonizingly slow speed around the very tightest apex of the corner before straightening and blasting for the next one is a difficult trick to master, but on rubber a touring car will NOT grip and accelerate when itís sliding, it just spins up the tires without actually going anywhere.
So which is better? Just do both, most tracks require both point-and-shoot and the sweep method in various corners.
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:43 PM   #9
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Ultimately, over a whole run smooth driving seems quicker if you have the room to do it. Less chance for error from ticking or taking too much curb, and you can do almost the same lap over and over. Point-shoot works better if you've got no room to run a smooth line, or you're attacking/defending. P&S covers apexes better usually, and lets you defend or make a pass easier.
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:52 PM   #10
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I'll share two of my favorite PnS videos:

By far the best of all time:
+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.



A bit more subtle, but Hara's car in super stock at 2010 IIC really exemplifies the way I aspire to drive a touring car.
+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:48 PM   #11
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Slow classes- smooth + super tight lines.
Mod- it don't matter. Pns + mad rip can make up for being less smooth.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:39 PM   #12
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The Smooth Point & Volker.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:43 PM   #13
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I'm more of a point and shoot kinda guy. I put in a one-way diff in my car where I cant rush into corners and forced me to smooth out. Put back in the spool and realized for 17.5 and 13.5 I was driving way to hard into the corners. Im sure in mod with a 3.5 or 4.5 I'd be ok with my normal driving style.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NolanP View Post
I'm more of a point and shoot kinda guy. I put in a one-way diff in my car where I cant rush into corners and forced me to smooth out. Put back in the spool and realized for 17.5 and 13.5 I was driving way to hard into the corners. Im sure in mod with a 3.5 or 4.5 I'd be ok with my normal driving style.
Here's Keven in 13.5 PnSing his way past a whole field of good drivers including a smooth driving Andy Moore. And Hara used the same kind of style in 2010 and 2011 to win 17.5 boosted. So are you really driving in too deep, or are you just not driving out fast enough?

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samnelso View Post
I agree that PnS may actually be an easier driving style. For example, if you purposely drive in hard you somewhat expect the car to get a little loose and are therefore ready for it. As opposed to a smoother style where you'd still like to drive on the edge, but the break-loose point is often a fine line and if it snaps can often lead to an undesired, and unexpected, situation.
This is a subtle but important point. I think that style of driving puts you in front of the car, and gives you the opportunity to correct it. An ill-behaving car in a smooth arc is probably going to do something more abruptly, and more difficult to correct than one going in a straight line.
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