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Old 06-13-2012, 05:38 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by JamesL_71 View Post
Why does "Stock" need to mean everyone has the exact same power and equipment?
so its a question of definition then. for me stock implies same equipment for everybody and race it out.

for sure it is motorsports. and in our case electronics are a huge part of that. but for all that wanna fidle with your motors and esc's etc. there is modified.

maybe there should just be modified, OPEN stock (just motor wind given, boost or no boost) and a "stock" class where everybody gets the same equipment etc. i wonder what would be the most popular class? would be interesting to see.

anyhow, since i am one who does not have time to adjust motor settings, test rotors etc but just have enough time to go to the track and race, a stock class with same equipment would be my idea of clean and fair racing.

but as i said in previous post, for the time being i just race modified and suck but dont care when i race ETS and guys like Rheinard and Völker are 0.8s quicker than me. they are just good and i need to practice.

völker once drove my car just 4 laps and was immediatly 0.5s faster than me. that just shows me what potential is still in driving and not electronics management.

anyway. looking forward to the IIC reports.
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Old 06-13-2012, 05:50 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Chaz955i View Post
My point was simply as racers and consumers it is up to us to police our own spending. If I want to be hyper-competitive and buy multiple speed controls or motors knowing in the back of my head that they, for the most part, are equal despite different powerbands or delivery I have no one to blame but myself. Being blinky or boost wouldn't have changed the behavior if I am a tinkerer or have to try everything to not feel like I'm leaving something on the table. While valid I think both arguements apply to the minority of racers and are really weak arguements for or against blinky.
Very well said!
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:08 AM   #93
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I think the point of this thread has been over-looked.

Offering a "Boosted" and "Non-Boosted" class allows people to run a class they want to run. It's not about which class is better and why. We've seen arguments on RCTech threads about that for the past two years. It's not about the cost of ESC's, motors, tuning rotors, tech or cheating. It's about offering something for everyone.

There are people out there that want to have a chance to boost and haul ass around a large high traction carpet track against the best competition in the country. A class that's been run for the past few years at the big Non-ROAR events. Most people don't want to hear "just run mod". Both boosted and non-boosted classes have had better turn outs then modified classes over the years.

Running "Blinky", "Boosted" or "Mod" is up to each racer.
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Old 06-14-2012, 04:39 AM   #94
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Even at club level, switching from boosted to blinky has its issues, as our local club is finding out.

Sure, power delivery is smoother, cars are easier control and probably as a result less breakages - but that's where the good points stop...

Blinky then opens the class up to:

Power wars - go out and buy a higher C rated lipo
Do you allow people to use motors with timing? (adjustable or built in)
Tuning rotors
Ceramic bearings
Lighter bodyshells etc etc
Bascially anything to gain an advantage on the next guy along to you...

Not everyone at club level has an open wallet!

Our main reason to do it was to make the racing closer, that didnt happen. The fast guys were still fast, still 1 or 2 laps up on the rest of the field, so what was achieved?

IMO, nothing...

If we go over to blinky, my Turnigy pack is gonna be leaving me further down the field. At least with boost, I had a chance of catching up with the extra speed if things didnt go to plan.

Now, i'll have to find the gearing again and then see what chance ive got of catching up before I open my wallet up....
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Old 06-14-2012, 05:58 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by tc3team View Post
Blinky then opens the class up to:

Power wars - go out and buy a higher C rated lipo
Do you allow people to use motors with timing? (adjustable or built in)
Tuning rotors
Ceramic bearings
Lighter bodyshells etc etc
Bascially anything to gain an advantage on the next guy along to you...
So why do all of these small advantages make a difference in blinky, but none of them make any difference in boosted?

If running a higher rated C lipo in blinky makes you go faster, it will do the same in boosted.
Tuning rotors that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.
Ceramic bearings that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.
Lighter bodyshells that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.

Quote:
Our main reason to do it was to make the racing closer, that didnt happen. The fast guys were still fast, still 1 or 2 laps up on the rest of the field, so what was achieved?

IMO, nothing...
Maybe it's more down to the driver than what ESC/motor/battery they have. If everyone is running boosted then you are all going to have the same amount of power, just like in blinky. Boosted doesn't make fast drivers even faster, or make average drivers fast. Boosted either adds one more layer of complexity at big meetings when drivers have to find the ideal ESC setup, but for club meetings everyone ends up with the same setups so you all end up with the same amount of power anyway.

Your argument against blinky seems to be that you don't like it because you are still behind the fastest drivers by the same amount as with boosted but you concede the blinky cars are easier and nicer to drive, how does that persuade anyone to choose boosted?

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If we go over to blinky, my Turnigy pack is gonna be leaving me further down the field. At least with boost, I had a chance of catching up with the extra speed if things didnt go to plan.
How do you somehow have extra speed over the other cars you are racing with when boosted, considering all the other cars you are racing against are also boosted? If the reason you have extra speed is entirely down to your boost settings then your argument for keeping boosted comes down to wanting to hang on to your personal advantage rather than wanting a more level playing field.

If you think your Turnigy pack is going to leave you further behind the fast guys with blinky, then it is also leaving you behind the fast guys in boosted. Remember when you are coming out of the corner your car is accelerating the same as in blinky until the boost kicks in, what will give you better acceleration in blinky will also give you better acceleration in boosted as well.
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:24 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
So why do all of these small advantages make a difference in blinky, but none of them make any difference in boosted?

If running a higher rated C lipo in blinky makes you go faster, it will do the same in boosted.
Tuning rotors that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.
Ceramic bearings that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.
Lighter bodyshells that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.


Maybe it's more down to the driver than what ESC/motor/battery they have. If everyone is running boosted then you are all going to have the same amount of power, just like in blinky. Boosted doesn't make fast drivers even faster, or make average drivers fast. Boosted either adds one more layer of complexity at big meetings when drivers have to find the ideal ESC setup, but for club meetings everyone ends up with the same setups so you all end up with the same amount of power anyway.

Your argument against blinky seems to be that you don't like it because you are still behind the fastest drivers by the same amount as with boosted but you concede the blinky cars are easier and nicer to drive, how does that persuade anyone to choose boosted?

How do you somehow have extra speed over the other cars you are racing with when boosted, considering all the other cars you are racing against are also boosted? If the reason you have extra speed is entirely down to your boost settings then your argument for keeping boosted comes down to wanting to hang on to your personal advantage rather than wanting a more level playing field.

If you think your Turnigy pack is going to leave you further behind the fast guys with blinky, then it is also leaving you behind the fast guys in boosted. Remember when you are coming out of the corner your car is accelerating the same as in blinky until the boost kicks in, what will give you better acceleration in blinky will also give you better acceleration in boosted as well.
At the moment, I dont feel the need to spend to get in the A, I can do it just fine.

However, a blinky class will shift people into looking for extra power, myself included if everyone else arounds me does the same.

It is natural for racers to find speed/punch if they are lacking it. At the moment, I am not. But, blinky will slow the cars down - and that is the clubs aim... But I dont think that alone will stop people looking at their car and finding more power.

Our track is small - 10x15metres only, high 7,or low 8 second lap times.

So, any extra power/speed you can make use of in betwen the corners will be an advantage to those who dont have it,imo.
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:51 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
If running a higher rated C lipo in blinky makes you go faster, it will do the same in boosted.
Tuning rotors that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.
Ceramic bearings that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.
Lighter bodyshells that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.
I never ran boosted all that long, but long enough to realize clever software allowed you to tune 'around' your equipment, rather than buy a lot of, often the most recent 'best', as a must have to get the speed.

It's a debated issue though.
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:09 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
So why do all of these small advantages make a difference in blinky, but none of them make any difference in boosted?

If running a higher rated C lipo in blinky makes you go faster, it will do the same in boosted.
Tuning rotors that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.
Ceramic bearings that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.
Lighter bodyshells that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.


Maybe it's more down to the driver than what ESC/motor/battery they have. If everyone is running boosted then you are all going to have the same amount of power, just like in blinky. Boosted doesn't make fast drivers even faster, or make average drivers fast. Boosted either adds one more layer of complexity at big meetings when drivers have to find the ideal ESC setup, but for club meetings everyone ends up with the same setups so you all end up with the same amount of power anyway.

Your argument against blinky seems to be that you don't like it because you are still behind the fastest drivers by the same amount as with boosted but you concede the blinky cars are easier and nicer to drive, how does that persuade anyone to choose boosted?

How do you somehow have extra speed over the other cars you are racing with when boosted, considering all the other cars you are racing against are also boosted? If the reason you have extra speed is entirely down to your boost settings then your argument for keeping boosted comes down to wanting to hang on to your personal advantage rather than wanting a more level playing field.

If you think your Turnigy pack is going to leave you further behind the fast guys with blinky, then it is also leaving you behind the fast guys in boosted. Remember when you are coming out of the corner your car is accelerating the same as in blinky until the boost kicks in, what will give you better acceleration in blinky will also give you better acceleration in boosted as well.
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Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
I never ran boosted all that long, but long enough to realize clever software allowed you to tune 'around' your equipment, rather than buy a lot of, often the most recent 'best', as a must have to get the speed.

It's a debated issue though.
Question and answer, thank you Bishop. Boosted ESC's allow you to "tune" around less then optimal equipment. You can run a 5000mah 40c $80 battery that you might run in VTA, and it can compete with a 6500 70c $150 battery because the boost overcomes the lower C rating. You're motor does not have to be the very best with all the upgrades, because you can boost over those deficencies.

The fast drivers will still be fast, but boost tends to lessen the disparity in equipment quality and this the difference between first and last. Doesn't mean you can use RTR motors, but the difference between an old Novak Ballistic and a new LRP x12 becomes almost meaningless, as the ESC settings can compensate for where the motor is lacking.
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Old 06-14-2012, 08:14 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
So why do all of these small advantages make a difference in blinky, but none of them make any difference in boosted?

If running a higher rated C lipo in blinky makes you go faster, it will do the same in boosted.
Tuning rotors that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.
Ceramic bearings that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.
Lighter bodyshells that make a difference in blinky will also make a difference in boosted.


Maybe it's more down to the driver than what ESC/motor/battery they have. If everyone is running boosted then you are all going to have the same amount of power, just like in blinky. Boosted doesn't make fast drivers even faster, or make average drivers fast. Boosted either adds one more layer of complexity at big meetings when drivers have to find the ideal ESC setup, but for club meetings everyone ends up with the same setups so you all end up with the same amount of power anyway.

Your argument against blinky seems to be that you don't like it because you are still behind the fastest drivers by the same amount as with boosted but you concede the blinky cars are easier and nicer to drive, how does that persuade anyone to choose boosted?

How do you somehow have extra speed over the other cars you are racing with when boosted, considering all the other cars you are racing against are also boosted? If the reason you have extra speed is entirely down to your boost settings then your argument for keeping boosted comes down to wanting to hang on to your personal advantage rather than wanting a more level playing field.

If you think your Turnigy pack is going to leave you further behind the fast guys with blinky, then it is also leaving you behind the fast guys in boosted. Remember when you are coming out of the corner your car is accelerating the same as in blinky until the boost kicks in, what will give you better acceleration in blinky will also give you better acceleration in boosted as well.
I've actually tried most of those, trying a different rotor usually just generates more heat. Ceramic bearings don't really reduce the drag co-efficient rather they just allow higher revs without fail. Never really ran the latest and greatest in batteries as I believe that they are a consumable and get replaced fairly quickly so I only go for the cheapest option and don't really notice any performance difference, I set the fastest laptime with a Gensace 50C at a club meet before the lap record got smashed at a large event ran there due to higher grip levels you usually get at a large event. Lightweight bodies don't really apply to a boosted/blinky argument.

Me being a boosted fan due to because it is a new technology which has "bridged the gap in performance" rather than embracing new technology, ROAR has chosen to go back to old technology which has literally slowed us down. It's not as if we chose to stick with dialup because there were phone lines down everywhere, but we chose to lay down fibre optics and advance on with technology. So why can't we do the same with R/C?
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:13 AM   #100
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So I am curious as to what the difference is in lap times between a boosted 13.5 and a blinky 13.5 on a track size like the iic or Snowbirds?
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:34 AM   #101
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What I will say about our local club is, no one forces any racer to use boosted when racing touring car.

They try to make the racing slower and smoother for the newcomer, yet all the newcomer needs to do, is.... use no timing to start with, then add it on as they improve...

Just because you buy a Bugatti Veyron, it doesnt meen you are going to drive it at top speed all the time, does it?....

Yes, blinky is for those who can't drive a car and want instant gratification because the power is low enough to mask any kind of handling problem.

To add to that, we race on foams.

(If the club was so keen to help the newcomer, why are we still racing foam tyres that need to be looked after but, they work on practically any car setup).

Not only that, now someone has to tech blinky if there is an appeal of someones car being outside of the rules to race control.... more work between heats and mains

I wonder how long it will be before 27t stock motors will be competitive against blinky or the next craze, if things get dumbed down even more?
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:44 AM   #102
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So I am curious as to what the difference is in lap times between a boosted 13.5 and a blinky 13.5 on a track size like the iic or Snowbirds?
Honestly I bet it is about a tenth different if that...

If you look at the classes from last year round 4 here is how they break down:

Hot Lap:
17.5 Stock non-timing 11.3
17.5 super stock timing 10.9
Mod 10.6

13.5 non-timing will come in right around the same times at 17.5 super stock from last year. It is perfect spread in my view.
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Old 06-14-2012, 11:11 AM   #103
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Did everyone really ever just sit back and give boost a chance to level out?

By that I mean, given time, it would have been available by all brands, likely easier due to development, and even out in terms of function.

What I saw personally, was people bitch about it being a one brand race, with no temperament to let all the brands catch up, and refine it till most people would have no issue getting a grasp on it.

I'm not saying anything bad about anyone, just given your now faced with so much pain from zero timing motor tuning, maybe the smart though would have been to just let boost run it's proper development course, long term it would likely have meant software development for free, vs one motor after the next.
When did Novak kill off the Kinetic? Seems to be about the time that there first started to be a big push towards blinky. Hobbywing came out of nowhere with a decent boosted ESC, now also re-packaged under different brand names. Same with several other boutique brands Viper, Orca, etc.

I fully support the Tekin model of constant product improvement via a free, simple firmware update that doesn't require buying a new ESC. Still have my RS since they first came out. Still works great.

I'll also admit that 1/12 scale 17.5 blinky is pretty boring. Just pull full wood for 90% of the lap and steer, with a mild lift in one or two corners.
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Old 06-14-2012, 01:15 PM   #104
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So I am curious as to what the difference is in lap times between a boosted 13.5 and a blinky 13.5 on a track size like the iic or Snowbirds?

On our carpet track here when I was testing both last winter it was about the boosted was about .2 per lap faster on average. Hot lap was about .35-.4 faster with boosted but that goes away pretty quickly. So Its not really that much. The 13.5 blinky runs the same speed forever it seemed like when we ran it as it was our club class last winter. Before and after big races I would run boosted to see the difference. The blinky is so much easier to drive and carries more corner speed due to the speedo not shifting gears/on or off all the time. It helped our 12th scale attendance due to the fact that it was fast enough to be fun but controllable even for club level guys we have here.

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Old 06-14-2012, 03:37 PM   #105
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Hi,

I'm just trying to understand.

What I commonly read is:

1. Blinky is too slow, it is a class for slow drivers to win, it is dumbing down, etc.

But on other hand, when told to join the modified class, where boost is allowed:

2. Don't force me to run mod.

Seems some boost drivers love to put down blinky drivers but when asked to run the "mans" class of modified... lots of excuses not to.

Blinky - Boost - Mod... three classes... 1 class too many... why not remove the boost class as it is already covered by the Modified rules? Here you can boost a weak motor to your heart's content (and overcharge your 60C lipos) or simply slap a 4.5T motor with weak batteries and get the same speed.

Blinky to me is about creating a slow (or slower enough class) to equal the "stock"class speed of brushed years. It is not about having a cheaper class nor is it a class for less cheating. It is simply to have a significantly slow(er) class.

Cheating, equipment required, is same with blinky or boost. Batteries/motor/esc is equally important in boost. If not, racers are simply not yet pushing the boundaries of boost.

I race blinky, boost and mod. Boost is unnecessary as it can merge with mod class.

Mod is simpler. No cheating. No 8.5T motor in a 13.T label. No overcharging of batteries. No tech needed.

At most of tracks we are talking 0.2 - 0.6 sec/lap difference between mod and boost... why bother splitting into 2 classes?

Boost is open to cheating... motors... batteries charged on the verge of exploding...

I'm just a race organizer trying to understand.

Thanks for your time.
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