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Old 06-12-2012, 07:07 AM   #46
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Interesting. Out of curiosity, what are these motors that came out and rendered other motors hopelessly slow? Ive seen a number of motors come through my local track and while some are stronger in certain respects I've yet to see one that makes anyone completely uncompetitive. Not doubting you, just wondering why it doesn't seem to be an issue in my area.
+1

I would also like to know why someone buying the latest motor rendering all others obsolete only happens in blinky, and why boost somehow means all the same old motors can now suddenly run at the same speed as the new super motor, especially considering for half a lap your motor is running without boost. If a motor is so much better than the others in blinky then that advantage will also show up when running boosted.

We run 21.5T boosted in F1s, and we have the situation that if any motor is allowed then you are limited to a choice of 1 motor, the Corally Red is so much faster than anything else. Running boosted there is no way you can tune another motor to match the speed of the Corally as you are just trying to match a faster motor that can use the same boost settings so the difference is much the same whether boosted or blinky.

Boost fans are always saying if they go to blinky they will have to start updating motors and building motors, yet somehow the old motors they have been using for ages are supposedly just as fast as the best motors today. I would just like to know why if you think you will be constantly buying the latest motors if you had to use blinky, why you aren't doing that with boosted considering the differences are just as noticeable.

If you want to stick to boosted then the simple answer is just sign up to boosted races, if it's the speed you want then sign up to mod. If the IIC sees the future is blinky and you are unhappy about it then so be it, don't attend the race. Complaining on here isn't going to make any difference to Scottys decision on which classes to run.

Last edited by terry.sc; 06-12-2012 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:49 AM   #47
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If they want to run IIC entirely blinky, why not change the 13.5 classes to 10.5 (other than WGT)? You will get a similar speed gap between 17.5, 10.5 blinky /13.5 boosted, and Mod...just a thought, seems like it would keep the gap between classes a little more consistent.
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:02 AM   #48
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+1

I would also like to know why someone buying the latest motor rendering all others obsolete only happens in blinky, and why boost somehow means all the same old motors can now suddenly run at the same speed as the new super motor, especially considering for half a lap your motor is running without boost. If a motor is so much better than the others in blinky then that advantage will also show up when running boosted.

We run 21.5T boosted in F1s, and we have the situation that if any motor is allowed then you are limited to a choice of 1 motor, the Corally Red is so much faster than anything else. Running boosted there is no way you can tune another motor to match the speed of the Corally as you are just trying to match a faster motor that can use the same boost settings so the difference is much the same whether boosted or blinky.

Boost fans are always saying if they go to blinky they will have to start updating motors and building motors, yet somehow the old motors they have been using for ages are supposedly just as fast as the best motors today. I would just like to know why if you think you will be constantly buying the latest motors if you had to use blinky, why you aren't doing that with boosted considering the differences are just as noticeable.

If you want to stick to boosted then the simple answer is just sign up to boosted races, if it's the speed you want then sign up to mod. If the IIC sees the future is blinky and you are unhappy about it then so be it, don't attend the race. Complaining on here isn't going to make any difference to Scottys decision on which classes to run.
Great Post!!!!

People are always going to keep complaining no matter what thatís the way of the RC car racer.

A faster motor is a faster motor period...it doesnít matter if its Blinky or boosted. The continued use of the phrase "The motor doesnít matter in Boosted classes" is moot....Your motor will ALWAYS matter no matter what the class is that you are racing.

Now if you are talking about tech then yes thatís a constant that always needs to be enforced no matter if its boosted or Blinky....any failure in this will lead to a complete failure of it being a fair event.
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:18 AM   #49
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Wow guys, I didn't want to start another flame thread on boost vs no boost for ROAR, it just seemed to me that in 1/12 scale at the IIC, the perfect combo of 17.5 being four laps slower than boosted 13.5 being four laps slower than mod was worth preserving. Touring car is another deal, but it seemed a waste to me to slow 13.5 down with no boost. I kinda liked the idea of having 1s Super Stock be 10.5, but we don't need another bitchin-about-boost-politics site. Boost is dead at ROAR, and their is no 13.5 ROAR classes anymore, I was just sad to see it go from the IIC.

I wanted, and still want, to potentially get the IIC coordinators to change 1/12 Super Stock to boost, not just more complaining about ROAR. If thats all this is I'm going to do what I can to get this thing deleted, and apologize for ever having done it.
No apology required, there will always be someone to twist your words to suit their rant.

I agree with your central point of finding a reasonable middle ground for 1/12, not just for IIC. The gap between 17.5 blinky and mod is pretty big, and the gap from 17.5 to 13.5 blinky is hardly noticeable, while boosted 13.5 filled in that space reasonably well. Sorry to use the B word.
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:53 AM   #50
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In what form of racing is powertrain not part of the set-up? Jesus, NASCAR Sprint cup is the most regulated form of racing on the planet, and their engine builders spend SH!T-TONS of money looking for any miniscule HP advantage they can get.
Bingo!

I have never understood this concept that seems to pervade the electric on-road Stock classes. Or, at least seems to be prevalent in the lower ranks of the Stock classes. Powertrain and motor setup IS part of the competition. Car setup and driving are most certainly important aspects, arguably the most important... but how does this mindset that the current on-road Stock classes are "so unfair because so-and-so has a better motor package than me that is so much faster!!!!11one" come about???

That isn't unfair... that is racing. That is your competitor doing his homework and coming to the track with a better powerplant than you.

I come from a fuel on-road background and just started racing electric for the first time about 8-9 months ago... and some of the posts I see in this forum are mindblowing. It's as if some of the Stock racers have this sense of entitlement about them that they should be granted a class where wins/losses are determined solely on the grounds of their driving skills.

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It kills me that so many people hate adjustable esc's, but are perfectly fine with a multitude of rotor options, mechanical timing, ceramic bearings, and in the case of one manufacturer, stators handwound from special wire.
Again, coming from a relative newcomer to electric on-road, I will add my 2 cents here.

I won't argue that the differences in motors seem to be slightly less with boost than in the blinky classes. But all of the rotor/stator options, ceramic bearings, etc are still available in the boosted classes. It is not as if suddenly allowing open speedo timing renders motor choice/setup irrelevant... it just seems to have shrunken the gap some.

But I also think that the boosted classes have brought a false sense of security with them in regards to motor selection. Some of the best boosted motors are older units from 2-3 years ago, like the Duo 1, etc. Now that manufacturers have been focusing their attention primarily on motors designed for the non-timing classes, you see motors that are a few years old being competitive in the open timing classes. Some people seem to think that this means "any old motor" is competitive in the boosted classes or that motor choice is a non-issue, etc, but that just isn't the case. And while we have not reached this issue just yet, I believe we are getting close to the point where some of the best boosted motors are getting pretty hard to find. If the Stock racers think that the current motor situation in non-timing is unfair, with racers showing up with the latest and greatest motor every other week, I can just imagine the whining and crying when the some of the best boosted motors simply cannot be found anymore and only a select few have access to them.

(Caveat: I do understand the flip side to all this... If the boosted classes were the hot ticket right now instead of blinky, MFGers would be producing new/better motors optimized for dynamic timing... and we would not have to worry about Duo1s disappearing, etc)

Lastly, is the time management issue. It is safe to say that both the boosted and non-timing classes require plenty of track time to determine the best setup. But, with the advent of all the motor measurement equipment and being able to purchase dyno-ed brushless motors/etc, someone who has less track time than others can get a lot farther in the non-timing classes. You can piece together a VERY competitive blinky motor package without ever setting foot on the track.... and then you can use your limited track time to determine your mech timing/rollout and there you have it; a competitive setup.

With the open-timing classes, you can obviously create the same competitive motor package off track... but once you are at the track, you need to spend additional time working on the speedo in conjunction with finding the ideal mech timing and rollout, etc.

Some peope like this challenge, others don't. Personally, I do like boost. I think it is fun and different to drive and it is a challenge to tune, which I enjoy. But the honest truth is that I just don't get enough track time to put together a competitive boosted package. In non-timing classes, I can at least feel as though I am showing up at the track with a competitive powerplant/package... and know that I am just a few gearing/timing tests away from being golden. I just can't say the same for open-timing...

But all this being said, it is obvious that timing vs non-timing is a personal preference... and it is VERY obvious that racers have differing opinions about it.
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:55 AM   #51
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i have raced many blinky and mod races in the past. i now enjoy mod because at least motor wise and power wise it is more fair. i rather drive in the d main in mod knowing that my skills dont allow for more than drive in the d main in blinky and always have in mind that the guys in front of me might be "cheating".

even in the 13.5 blinky, and with pool-motors there is still the problem of motors not being equal even if not modified by drivers etc. there are unfortunately huge differences in motors fresh out of the pack.

only way to have fair races would be pool motors which are checked before by tech so the produce the same rpms and watts and are then sealed and have to be returned and build in in front of a tech guy.

next up is batteries. in blinky the batterie makes a huge difference. therefore also pool batteries. every body has to draw a batterie out of the pool. if you destroy or damage the batterie you drew (overcharge etc) it might hurt you because next race you could very well draw that same batterie.

for small races this could be managed. but i iguess for big races like the IIC or ETS series or snowbirds this would require huge logistics for the organizers. i could be done but i think its very hard.

that would give a level playing field afterall in my opinion. in the meantime i enjoy giving mod a chance and just battle with the guys in the back

my 2 cents

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Old 06-12-2012, 09:35 AM   #52
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Bingo!

I won't argue that the differences in motors seem to be slightly less with boost than in the blinky classes. But all of the rotor/stator options, ceramic bearings, etc are still available in the boosted classes. It is not as if suddenly allowing open speedo timing renders motor choice/setup irrelevant... it just seems to have shrunken the gap some.

But I also think that the boosted classes have brought a false sense of security with them in regards to motor selection. Some of the best boosted motors are older units from 2-3 years ago, like the Duo 1, etc. Now that manufacturers have been focusing their attention primarily on motors designed for the non-timing classes, you see motors that are a few years old being competitive in the open timing classes. Some people seem to think that this means "any old motor" is competitive in the boosted classes or that motor choice is a non-issue, etc, but that just isn't the case. And while we have not reached this issue just yet, I believe we are getting close to the point where some of the best boosted motors are getting pretty hard to find. If the Stock racers think that the current motor situation in non-timing is unfair, with racers showing up with the latest and greatest motor every other week, I can just imagine the whining and crying when the some of the best boosted motors simply cannot be found anymore and only a select few have access to them.

But all this being said, it is obvious that timing vs non-timing is a personal preference... and it is VERY obvious that racers have differing opinions about it.
My only fear if timing was in play is that I would be buying new speed controls instead of motors. I'll drop $80 a motor a few times then have choices and be done. I don't want to buy speed control's every few months cause one updated the boost profile and is faster.

I don't care if its boosted or not. That would be my fear if boost was common though is we would be buying Esc's not motors or a rotor here and there.
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:47 AM   #53
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i have raced many blinky and mod races in the past. i now enjoy mod because at least motor wise and power wise it is more fair. i rather drive in the d main in mod knowing that my skills dont allow for more than drive in the d main in blinky and always have in mind that the guys in front of me might be "cheating".

even in the 13.5 blinky, and with pool-motors there is still the problem of motors not being equal even if not modified by drivers etc. there are unfortunately huge differences in motors fresh out of the pack.

only way to have fair races would be pool motors which are checked before by tech so the produce the same rpms and watts and are then sealed and have to be returned and build in in front of a tech guy.

next up is batteries. in blinky the batterie makes a huge difference. therefore also pool batteries. every body has to draw a batterie out of the pool. if you destroy or damage the batterie you drew (overcharge etc) it might hurt you because next race you could very well draw that same batterie.

for small races this could be managed. but i iguess for big races like the IIC or ETS series or snowbirds this would require huge logistics for the organizers. i could be done but i think its very hard.

that would give a level playing field afterall in my opinion. in the meantime i enjoy giving mod a chance and just battle with the guys in the back

my 2 cents

cheers

Why does "Stock" need to mean everyone has the exact same power and equipment?

Why are people getting punished for investing the time, resources, and knowhow into finding the best motor?

Racing is a competition. Part of that competition is finding and tuning the best power package for your class. Just because the class has a motor turn/wind limit(similar to a displacement limit in fullsize racing), does not mean everyone is supposed to have equal equipment.

1) Driving skill
2) Chassis setup
3) Motor setup

The whole package is what wins races. Stock racing puts a limit on the physical dimensions of the powerplant, but it does not promise that the guy next to you hasn't put in the effort to find a better motor... nor should it, IMHO.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:00 AM   #54
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Bingo!

I have never understood this concept that seems to pervade the electric on-road Stock classes. Or, at least seems to be prevalent in the lower ranks of the Stock classes. Powertrain and motor setup IS part of the competition. Car setup and driving are most certainly important aspects, arguably the most important... but how does this mindset that the current on-road Stock classes are "so unfair because so-and-so has a better motor package than me that is so much faster!!!!11one" come about???

That isn't unfair... that is racing. That is your competitor doing his homework and coming to the track with a better powerplant than you.

I come from a fuel on-road background and just started racing electric for the first time about 8-9 months ago... and some of the posts I see in this forum are mindblowing. It's as if some of the Stock racers have this sense of entitlement about them that they should be granted a class where wins/losses are determined solely on the grounds of their driving skills.



Again, coming from a relative newcomer to electric on-road, I will add my 2 cents here.

I won't argue that the differences in motors seem to be slightly less with boost than in the blinky classes. But all of the rotor/stator options, ceramic bearings, etc are still available in the boosted classes. It is not as if suddenly allowing open speedo timing renders motor choice/setup irrelevant... it just seems to have shrunken the gap some.

But I also think that the boosted classes have brought a false sense of security with them in regards to motor selection. Some of the best boosted motors are older units from 2-3 years ago, like the Duo 1, etc. Now that manufacturers have been focusing their attention primarily on motors designed for the non-timing classes, you see motors that are a few years old being competitive in the open timing classes. Some people seem to think that this means "any old motor" is competitive in the boosted classes or that motor choice is a non-issue, etc, but that just isn't the case. And while we have not reached this issue just yet, I believe we are getting close to the point where some of the best boosted motors are getting pretty hard to find. If the Stock racers think that the current motor situation in non-timing is unfair, with racers showing up with the latest and greatest motor every other week, I can just imagine the whining and crying when the some of the best boosted motors simply cannot be found anymore and only a select few have access to them.

(Caveat: I do understand the flip side to all this... If the boosted classes were the hot ticket right now instead of blinky, MFGers would be producing new/better motors optimized for dynamic timing... and we would not have to worry about Duo1s disappearing, etc)

Lastly, is the time management issue. It is safe to say that both the boosted and non-timing classes require plenty of track time to determine the best setup. But, with the advent of all the motor measurement equipment and being able to purchase dyno-ed brushless motors/etc, someone who has less track time than others can get a lot farther in the non-timing classes. You can piece together a VERY competitive blinky motor package without ever setting foot on the track.... and then you can use your limited track time to determine your mech timing/rollout and there you have it; a competitive setup.

With the open-timing classes, you can obviously create the same competitive motor package off track... but once you are at the track, you need to spend additional time working on the speedo in conjunction with finding the ideal mech timing and rollout, etc.

Some peope like this challenge, others don't. Personally, I do like boost. I think it is fun and different to drive and it is a challenge to tune, which I enjoy. But the honest truth is that I just don't get enough track time to put together a competitive boosted package. In non-timing classes, I can at least feel as though I am showing up at the track with a competitive powerplant/package... and know that I am just a few gearing/timing tests away from being golden. I just can't say the same for open-timing...

But all this being said, it is obvious that timing vs non-timing is a personal preference... and it is VERY obvious that racers have differing opinions about it.
I'm still not sold on the whole "false sense of security" aspect. What I generally saw in boosted was that an esc could be tuned to suit the motor. That being said you ran a ton of boost on some motors that were "weaker" and they ran great. There were other motors that didn't like that much boost because they were stronger to begin with. You could run lots of boost on the "better" motors and they'd be wicked fast, right up to the point where they BURNED to the ground. Or you could have some sense and use a temp gun, and dial back the timing to where the motor was comfortable. It was still fast that way, and it didn't blow up.

So you've got a guy who swears he's not as fast as the local hero, and it's all motor. This guy keeps turning up the boost 'till he lets the smoke out. Then he cries that boost killed his motor. Meanwhile, the educated watch his car, and it carries zero cornerspeed, and his line is three feet wide everywhere. He didn't have to turn the boost up that much, but it couldn't have been his car or his driving, it just couldn't have!In blinky the same guy tends to do it with mechanical timing and rollout. And yes, there are less motors letting out the Magic smoke. The problem is that there are now LOTS more motors that don't actually run anymore, they just walk due to being overheated by too much gear and timing.

I ran two full seasons of 12th scale on 1 RSPro and essentially 1 Duo 1. No tuning rotors, no ceramic bearings, no options at all. I had a back up motor, but never used it. It was just as fast, (actually according to the dyno it should have been faster), but the primary worked so well I just left it in my car. I mean, maybe I could've gone faster had I played with rotors or stuck ceramics in the can but I was keeping up with the fast guys, so it seemed really unneccessary.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:02 AM   #55
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next up is batteries. in blinky the batterie makes a huge difference. therefore also pool batteries. every body has to draw a batterie out of the pool. if you destroy or damage the batterie you drew (overcharge etc) it might hurt you because next race you could very well draw that same batterie.
Your battery will always be important much like your motor...if you think or "know" that batteries for Blinky make a huge difference then why would they not make the same difference in a Boosted class?

This whole argument about motors or batteries being more important in Blinky Vs Boosted is a major falsehood that people need to realize that if matters in one it will matter in the other. If you think it that in a Boosted class it doesnt you are only fooling yourself. This is a motorsport...and as such your power IE motor and Battery will always matter. Stop using this as the base of any argument or debate you are having because it doesnt hold any truth.

If you want to argue about which one you enjoy more then fine but dont use an untruth as the base of your case.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:14 AM   #56
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Great Post!!!!

A faster motor is a faster motor period...it doesn’t matter if its Blinky or boosted. The continued use of the phrase "The motor doesn’t matter in Boosted classes" is moot....Your motor will ALWAYS matter no matter what the class is that you are racing.
No one ever said "motor doesn't matter" It's just that the window in Boosted is way bigger than the keyhole that exists in Blinky. It is possible to "hit the wall" with boost and make the motor no faster, just blow it up. That's where most motor failures came from.

Blinky is EXACTLY like brushed stock was. Search for the best can, arm, brushes, has become search for the best rotor, stator, timing setting. Both require the strongest cells to gain that little advantage too. You know, all the stuff that costs more money. And what's the bonus for all this new hardware based tuning? SLOWER CARS!!! YAY!!!


Boosted shifted SOME of the emphasis from equipment to driving talent, as the car was faster, and therefore a bit more difficult to drive. In this "everyone gets a ribbon age", the whole more difficult to drive thing really is a pisser.

Everyone keeps saying, if you want to run a faster class then run Mod. My response to this is, If you want to run a slower class, run VTA or USGT. Isn't that why those classes were born?

It's okay though. Blinky is where we have gone, and we'll stay there until the next big change that comes down the pike. Then we'll all have something new to argue about.

I enjoyed boosted more because it was less expensive to be competitive.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:36 AM   #57
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I enjoyed boosted more because it was less expensive to be competitive.
I agree 100%
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:40 AM   #58
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As much as I have always disliked and resisted the idea of needing to mess around with all of the various programmable speedo timing and boost settings, I hate it worse when I show up at the track to race blinky, only to find out that one or two of the racers in attendance are sporting a new "must have" motor or rotor that has instantly rendered all other motors hopelessly slow, off the pace, and therefore obsolete. When this happens in a class where the rules are supposed to be keeping the available power approximately equal, that just sucks. It viloates the concept of fair, close, and equal competition in "stock" class racing. To make metters worse, often it takes days or even weeks to track down and to procure the new must have motor or option tuning part. Meanwhile there is no chance to be competitive again until the latest must have motor or motor component arrives. While I hate to admit it, I have resigned myself to the reality that the impact of this phenomenon is less severe on the average but still serious club level racer when tunable speedos are allowed. The upside to the boosted speedos is that they afford the racer an opportunity to take better advantage of whatever motor that they already have....with less need for the continuous outlay of cash that is required if one tries to keep up with the "motor of the week" phenomenon.
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I couldnt agree more, with Blinky you are always hunting for the latest and greatest combo which in fact is exactly what they want ! you are running the motors at there very limits where with boosted esc you could adapt your setting to make the motor to work, with blinky how many spare motors do you keep ? is it the same amount for when you ran boosted ???

Personally I think its a marketing ploy to sell more goods as there will always be a new 'greatest' motor and unfortunately this does not have the racers interests at heart !
These two guys in this thread along with other threads all keep spewing the samething....

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No one ever said "motor doesn't matter" It's just that the window in Boosted is way bigger than the keyhole that exists in Blinky. It is possible to "hit the wall" with boost and make the motor no faster, just blow it up. That's where most motor failures came from.

Its the same for Blinky as it is with boosted...you "hit the wall" the motor will blow it doesnt matter in boosted or blinky pushing to the limits will have the same end result. Going to blinky takes the guess work out of it for the simple people and more people seem to be enjoying it than they do racing boosted.

Blinky is EXACTLY like brushed stock was. Search for the best can, arm, brushes, has become search for the best rotor, stator, timing setting. Both require the strongest cells to gain that little advantage too. You know, all the stuff that costs more money. And what's the bonus for all this new hardware based tuning? SLOWER CARS!!! YAY!!!

The only cars that are now slower with going to Blinky stock are 1cell cars...which IMO should stay at boosted or give them more voltage take your pick. Sedan or 2cell classes that are Blinky racing 17.5 are faster then brushed 27t motors with the same battery. Also the speed of the cars is about what 90% of the racers out there can handle on the majority of the tracks.


Boosted shifted SOME of the emphasis from equipment to driving talent, as the car was faster, and therefore a bit more difficult to drive. In this "everyone gets a ribbon age", the whole more difficult to drive thing really is a pisser.

I still dont see this...it will always take talent to drive...going Blinky isnt going to take this away. I have yet to see a race where because now its blinky EVERYONE is on the same lap...that doesnt happen. All Blinky does is makes it apear like the racing is closer because the speeds are what more people can handle...thus more people enjoy it...but the end result is the same the same guys are winning no matter if it was boosted or blinky but there are more people doing it now because of it being blinky.

Everyone keeps saying, if you want to run a faster class then run Mod. My response to this is, If you want to run a slower class, run VTA or USGT. Isn't that why those classes were born?

Yes you are correct...if you want a faster class run mod....if you want a slower one run one of the slower classes.

It's okay though. Blinky is where we have gone, and we'll stay there until the next big change that comes down the pike. Then we'll all have something new to argue about.

Truer words have never been spoken....

I enjoyed boosted more because it was less expensive to be competitive.

I like Blinky in Sedan because more people are racing now because of it...they should not have messed with 1cell cars they were fine with boost that is a shame.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:17 AM   #59
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Let's be honest, boost was great for the crowd of guys that's always blaming electronics. Because they could slide everything to max on their hotwire and pull people on the straight. Who cares if the car was impossible to to drive in the infield?

How many times, during the boost days, did you hear some mixer say "did you see how fast my *ish was on the straight? I was pulling <insert fast guy> so hard!"

It's all about perception. Boost made you feel fast even though you're not.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:51 AM   #60
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