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Old 06-07-2012, 05:18 PM   #61
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I just want to take this minute and thank everyone who has particapted in DE-RAILING this thread with converstions about set-ups and taking jabs at each others comprehesion levels.......truly appreciated!!!!

The whole point of this thread was to discuss the current rule set about speed controls and motors. Now I understand how a conversation of this nature is baffling to those who believe in the theory of "if it ain't broke; don't fix it". But from what I've seen here so far; this line of stagnant thaught processes will kill the class before it has a chance to fully flourish; which is the sad part. This class has the potential to be just as popular and respected as all other forms of touring car racing. But it will never happen if things don't change. I'm not looking for an overnight revamping on the rule set; only to inspire creative thinking.

With that said I emplore you to take your discussions about your set-ups that so far have been great articles of advice and repost them in the thread where they belong.....and NOT HERE.
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Old 06-07-2012, 05:32 PM   #62
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what I do with FDR is simple...Im at 3.7, which my motor seems to like alot. I got that by starting at 4.0 FDR(96/48) and 15 deg time on the motor. I ran some laps and went adjusted my FDR...till I got to a max for my car and track...the traction was good so the car got quicker as the day went...but I manage to get down to 3.6 and it wasnt as good and the temp was higher...it was faster on the 95 ft straight, but thats not going to win a race...so I backed it to 3.7 and started adding timming. I got up to 35-37 deg area and it was very good....when the traction is very high...but when the traction was low or a new layout...I went down to 25 deg for the smaller tracks and 30 for Thunder. The catch is to find a cool motor and esc setting and make small adjustments to get to the sweet spot....

keep in mind that every motor sweet spot may be a little different...my backup 25.5 doesnt run real good unless its around 40 deg, with the same 3.7 FDR....these are "hand wound"...how strong are your hands
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Old 06-07-2012, 05:35 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trytowin View Post
To some degree, there are people that simply don't like Novak stuff.
Also, if you have a programmable esc laying around at home, why not use it ?
(ROAR approved, of course)
Then all you have is the cost of the motor.

BTW, I run a three year old GTB esc and two year old ballistic motor, neither has given me any problems.

P.S. See posting in "Asphalt Assault" thread, very recent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hexonox View Post
I just want to take this minute and thank everyone who has particapted in DE-RAILING this thread with converstions about set-ups and taking jabs at each others comprehesion levels.......truly appreciated!!!!

The whole point of this thread was to discuss the current rule set about speed controls and motors. Now I understand how a conversation of this nature is baffling to those who believe in the theory of "if it ain't broke; don't fix it". But from what I've seen here so far; this line of stagnant thaught processes will kill the class before it has a chance to fully flourish; which is the sad part. This class has the potential to be just as popular and respected as all other forms of touring car racing. But it will never happen if things don't change. I'm not looking for an overnight revamping on the rule set; only to inspire creative thinking.

With that said I emplore you to take your discussions about your set-ups that so far have been great articles of advice and repost them in the thread where they belong.....and NOT HERE.
okay Ill bite...

if the US VTA would re-think the rules as far as esc and motor...what would be the benifit?
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:05 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Hexonox View Post
I just want to take this minute and thank everyone who has particapted in DE-RAILING this thread with converstions about set-ups and taking jabs at each others comprehesion levels.......truly appreciated!!!!

The whole point of this thread was to discuss the current rule set about speed controls and motors. Now I understand how a conversation of this nature is baffling to those who believe in the theory of "if it ain't broke; don't fix it". But from what I've seen here so far; this line of stagnant thaught processes will kill the class before it has a chance to fully flourish; which is the sad part. This class has the potential to be just as popular and respected as all other forms of touring car racing. But it will never happen if things don't change. I'm not looking for an overnight revamping on the rule set; only to inspire creative thinking.

With that said I emplore you to take your discussions about your set-ups that so far have been great articles of advice and repost them in the thread where they belong.....and NOT HERE.
I guess I will attempt to answer this as best I can as to why, with my own opinion, to stay with current motor rules. I am no motor guru and know even less about esc's.

With the 2 motor options that are currently available I know this;
1) the stator core is the same,inductance values may vary
2) the stock rotor is the same, gauss values may vary
3) they are hand wound
4) they have the same wire for the windings
5) they have the same base sensor,although one is replaceable by the user
6) the SS version is limited to around 12-14 degrees of timing with no modifications to the sensor end (which can be done with a dremel)
7) the ballistic,when not exceeding the last line of the sticker, is 15 degrees of aditional timing
8) same mfg,same quality control specs, in theory both should preform the same
9) one is black, which IMO, will hold more heat, and one is silver which should be more radiant heat reflective

None of this however means that they are all the same in performance,for whatever reason, each motor will run differently.

Other motors of the same wind , 25.5, can have considerable more timing,either through physical adjustment of the ring or optional board assemblies which will equate to more rpm's and higher top speeds.

Other motors may have at least 5 different optional tuning rotors, some have even more.

Other motors made by the same OEM can and have been turned into hand built hybrids by mixing and matching components of similar construction.

I have participated in an un-regulated hybrid version of VTA and built a hybrid motor by mixing and matching different components, even contemplated spending the $150 for a "built motor" for the event(which, in hind sight, I should have). I personally don't want the headache or added expense.

Just my thoughts,maybe I am off base or biased with the equipment. I am, however content knowing that the guy who just yarded me down the chute and is .2 tenths quicker is running the exact same motor I am.

As far as the esc's, I have raced against ROAR listed speedo's and USVTA speedo's, I'll take the perceptual comfort in the USVTA list. The extra money from a potential high end ROAR listed esc, that I may or may not use in something else can be put towards entry fees when I travel. Just a personal choice and nothing else.

The above is my personal opinion, and in no way shape or form should be construed otherwise, for or against a equipment mfg, nor for or against what other clubs/tracks or series may so choose to promote VTA racing or participation.

Eric
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:14 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ercwhtsd View Post
I guess I will attempt to answer this as best I can as to why, with my own opinion, to stay with current motor rules. I am no motor guru and know even less about esc's.

With the 2 motor options that are currently available I know this;
1) the stator core is the same,inductance values may vary
2) the stock rotor is the same, gauss values may vary
3) they are hand wound
4) they have the same wire for the windings
5) they have the same base sensor,although one is replaceable by the user
6) the SS version is limited to around 12-14 degrees of timing with no modifications to the sensor end (which can be done with a dremel)
7) the ballistic,when not exceeding the last line of the sticker, is 15 degrees of aditional timing
8) same mfg,same quality control specs, in theory both should preform the same
9) one is black, which IMO, will hold more heat, and one is silver which should be more radiant heat reflective

None of this however means that they are all the same in performance,for whatever reason, each motor will run differently.

Other motors of the same wind , 25.5, can have considerable more timing,either through physical adjustment of the ring or optional board assemblies which will equate to more rpm's and higher top speeds.

Other motors may have at least 5 different optional tuning rotors, some have even more.

Other motors made by the same OEM can and have been turned into hand built hybrids by mixing and matching components of similar construction.

I have participated in an un-regulated hybrid version of VTA and built a hybrid motor by mixing and matching different components, even contemplated spending the $150 for a "built motor" for the event(which, in hind sight, I should have). I personally don't want the headache or added expense.

Just my thoughts,maybe I am off base or biased with the equipment. I am, however content knowing that the guy who just yarded me down the chute and is .2 tenths quicker is running the exact same motor I am.

As far as the esc's, I have raced against ROAR listed speedo's and USVTA speedo's, I'll take the perceptual comfort in the USVTA list. The extra money from a potential high end ROAR listed esc, that I may or may not use in something else can be put towards entry fees when I travel. Just a personal choice and nothing else.

The above is my personal opinion, and in no way shape or form should be construed otherwise, for or against a equipment mfg, nor for or against what other clubs/tracks or series may so choose to promote VTA racing or participation.

Eric


very well spoken/typed
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:45 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
okay Ill bite...

if the US VTA would re-think the rules as far as esc and motor...what would be the benifit?
More people racing.
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:56 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by trytowin View Post
More people racing.
okay the idea in open esc and motors is to raise attendance for VTA?..correct?
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:21 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by trytowin View Post
More people racing.
Or not.

Part of why I've enjoyed running this class (and onroad in general) is the fact that the stuff I bought last year, ran all last year, and am still running this year... will be good for quite some time.

Every year with the offroad stuff the motors I bought the previous year are no longer in fashion... or you have to buy a motor and a new rotor just to be in the ballpark... or some new stupid timing software has reinvented the esc wheel again for whatever stupid reason. Running any other TC class will be more of the same.

People know the rules before they enter this class. You will never have a 100% level field, nor will you ever escape the handful of people that will spend way more than maybe they should on ANY class they race. The nice thing about the rules as-is, for me, is that other than replacing tires and the odd spare part... I'll be able to run what I have until it BREAKS, not until its been replaced by something newer, shinier, faster, whatever. Open esc/motor rules would make me leave the class and just run 17.5 and be done with it.

Would I like other brands of no-timing esc's to be made? Sure.. why not. The one motor brand thing... even if it's a brand I don't run in any other class, keeps things simple. I like not having to buy new tires for the VTA car EVERY. SINGLE. WEEK. like the 17.5 car seems to need to be competitive.

I *like* the motor/esc/tire rules as-is.





To go back a few posts... the reason we keep seeing the "so-and-so won with the cheapest this-or-that..." posts is because people here are trying to reinforce that you do *NOT* have to spend a ton of cash to run this class. Old stuff works, my last years stuff works, my cheap batteries work just as well as the 'better' packs.. at the end of the day, it's my driving that's the biggest factor in where I finish.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:30 PM   #69
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okay Ill bite...

if the US VTA would re-think the rules as far as esc and motor...what would be the benifit?
The benefit in allowing/updating the current rule set on esc's lays in the premise of new participants. As mentioned previously; a new racer who does not prefer a Novak but already has an esc that was designed specifically for spec class racing. By keeping the rules the same because it benefits some; you (not directly you) alienate and essentially stunt growth. I as well as you have our personal beliefs on what works best for us; or what we have grown as racers with. Personally from what I have seen as this class has grown is that other esc's were "approved" to give the appearance of equality; but as technology progressed only Novak's equipment was upgraded and all the other "approved" esc's were disregarded. Just look at the list and chart the trend. About a month or so ago I posted a question if the new LRP SPX zero would be considered for USVTA approval. The response I was given was that "it bares too close of a resemblance to the standard SPX and that if someone wanted to; they could swap cases between the two esc's. Now please keep in mind this was dirctly after my 6th and final Novak esc had decided to go nuclear while inside my car with the power switch in the OFF position. At which point I decided that I was no longer going to race VTA until the rules changed. However I have found that I miss running VTA; but what I miss even more is the $600+ that I wasted on esc's and the time that I was not able to drive my car because i was waiting for warranty returns. On a side note; one would tend to think that a company that is gearing it's products for entry level racers might include a simple feature like reverse polarity protection ie. LRP and Tekin. Although I understand why an RS should not be approved for this class. And back to the nefarious types. What would stop someone from pulling the "GTB 2" sticker off the side of that esc and re-applying it an actual Kintic esc from which the GTB 2 cases was re-sourced? One last point on this very long winded rant: I currently race in the USGT class. In my car I have an LRP SPX Zero and a matching LRP X11 21.5 motor; a friend and close competitor of mine is using a Novak GTB 2x with a revtek 21.5 and we've proven that both set-ups are extremely close in overall performance. I just have ease of mind knowing that it's more likely that his will quit do to a random loss of magic smoke!!!
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:31 PM   #70
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okay the idea in open esc and motors is to raise attendance for VTA?..correct?
You know once upon a time I had my own set of tweaks that I thought would be better for VTA. I have really seen this argument from both sides. I cant believe there are still people showing up complaining about the rules when we have been running on them smoothly for two years.

"I dont like VTA bodies." Try USGT!!! "I dont like the ESC list or the motor limitations." Try USGT!!! "This class will never fully flourish as long as we have these stupid rules." Really? Around here its the class that everyone is excited to run and easily outnumbers TC.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:36 PM   #71
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Part of why I've enjoyed running this class (and onroad in general) is the fact that the stuff I bought last year, ran all last year, and am still running this year... will be good for quite some time.


Summary for the literary ADD: not about performance....about options that are not Novak!!! for those who have had bad experiences with those products...
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:38 PM   #72
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For all of you who want to know why USVTA specs one specific speed control and motor, start reading all the other threads about blinky versus open speed controls, or how people are cranking so much timing into motors they're melting down. The whole purpose of USVTA was to eliminate as many of the arguments as possible. The class is supposed to be put your car on the track and have fun! If you're here to win, you're in the wrong class.

If you don't like the rules, or want to run different motors or speed controls, then don't race this class!!! VTA is supposed to be an entry level class, and it may be time for you to move up.
I have to agree I'm having a hard time with USVTA and yes it should be simple but its not.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:46 PM   #73
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You know once upon a time I had my own set of tweaks that I thought would be better for VTA. I have really seen this argument from both sides. I cant believe there are still people showing up complaining about the rules when we have been running on them smoothly for two years.

"I dont like VTA bodies." Try USGT!!! "I dont like the ESC list or the motor limitations." Try USGT!!! "This class will never fully flourish as long as we have these stupid rules." Really? Around here its the class that everyone is excited to run and easily outnumbers TC.
Well once upon a time the rules were ROAR. and for the record I never once proclaimed that the rules were "stupid". I only claim that they are fairly narrow sighted!!

I think the point that every one seems to be missing is that I do want to see the class grow. But I also believe that there is no place for a monopoly in a country that was founded with Free Enterprise in mind.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:50 PM   #74
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Having just jumped head first into US VTA I was pretty happy about not having to bite my fingernails over what esc and motor to buy. I liked that part of it! There are other classes I run that I'm always wondering which motor to run or is all this tinkering with esc settings really helping. US VTA is relaxing lol. Plus its really just about having cool bodies
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:53 PM   #75
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I have to agree I'm having a hard time with USVTA and yes it should be simple but its not.
Jep4755
There has never, will never be anything simple about spec class racing. If you reduce the choices on motor,esc,batteries and tires; whats left?.....the chassis. So now we have alienated the new comers who can't afford that new $400+ chassis that the 'fast' guy at his local track is stomping everyone with.
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