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Old 06-07-2012, 06:50 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by ChadRacing View Post
VTA IS NO WAY IN SHAPE A ENTRY LEVEL CLASS.
I disagree. It is the best entry level class for touring car. Sure there's the guys who spend a ton of money trying to find the motor that spins that extra 50 rpm's but I just at them. It is also a great way to learn chassis tuning.

You have to learn how to tune the car and how to drive it fast, before you can drive a fast car. Hence why I think it is the perfect entry level class since the speeds are the slowest so you can learn what chassis changes do for your lap times.


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You have to know how to setup a car and drive the cars to be fast. The car needs to be setup so it roll thru the corners and can make the quick transitions without scrubbing speed. Newcomers do not know this and get frustrated very quickly cause they can not keep up
Hate to break it to you, but EVERY racing class is that way.
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Old 06-07-2012, 06:52 AM   #17
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VTA is supposed to be an entry level class, and it may be time for you to move up.
Exactly. IMHO it is a fun class to run and a great way to learn the art that is touring car racing. People need to either run it because they are a whole lot of fun, or because they want to get into touring car racing and need a place to start.
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:32 AM   #18
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My first thought on the motor brand issue was "why not allow other brands?" But then I remembered what happened back in the "dark ages" of brushed motors. For those of you that missed it, in 1991 ROAR issued a new set of specifications defining what a "stock" motor was. Between 1993 and 2008, one company released 19 different stock motors. That averages a new motor every 9.7 months. Now that we've gone brushless, it should be better, right? That same company has relased 8 stock (17.5) brushless motors in 42 months, an average of 5.75 months per motor. So I guess I'm OK with only having 2 motors to choose from.
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:49 AM   #19
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Ok..but then you still have the guys who go out and buy 5 motors to build and match so they can get the best performance. How is that equal? I know this for a fact cause several people out our local track have done this and you can see that their motors are way stronger and faster. You can not complete with people who do this. People will always find ways to be faster just cause they have the money.
The difference is that if motor rules were open you'd have guys buying 5 of every motor to build the perfect one. Think statistics, the more populations you add into your bell curve, the wider its going to get. That means when you buy a motor out of the case the probability of getting out motored gets even greater.

I'm definitely in favor of spec motors in the more entry-level or casual racer classes. ESC's I can see a bit of wiggle room, because performance is supposed to be the same (only difference is options). I'm not sure how well that's played out, though.

As for equipment life issues, I'll admit I've had more than my fair share of problems with Novak's speedos since they went to replaceable plug-in boards. The original stuff, GTB and Havok, that I have still works great. Having said that, I've also had a Tekin blow up on me after a couple runs, and its warranty replacement blow up on me in two laps. So it's not a Novak only problem, its electronics in general.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:36 AM   #20
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As a program that just had over 20 USVTA cars this past weekend, this is a growing class for us here....The newer and casual racers love the fact that there is only one motor choice.

It's the more experienced (and sponsored) racers that balk a bit about not allowing other brands....

We tried the ROAR specs last season, and went to USVTA this season and can honestly tell you that USVTA has attracted way more new and casual racers.

I can see both sides of the coin, but like robk said, if you wanna run ROAR specs, just get a group of racers willing to run it, and build a following at your track.

We offered a ROAR class last weekend, but the ROAR types opted to beg, borrow, and in some cases invest to run USVTA specs.....

I agree this class isn't for everyone (nor should it be), but the ones that do enjoy the structure and concept.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:40 AM   #21
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I have participated in these debates before, and nothing ever changes.

Chris, I understand and empathize. As we discussed last night, I will be putting my VTA back together to start getting ready for the Southern Nats. The class is fun in general. I will comment on some of the things said though.

If you think VTA is an entry level class, you are right and you are wrong. It has the ability to be a stepping stone class, as the cost of entry is less then full blown TC. The slower speeds decrease car breakage, and are more condusive to learning setup and driving skills. This all is true to "participate" in VTA. To "win" in VTA, it is just like any spec class, a time and money sink. Myron, I have heard it a million times before, so please don't say it again that you can beat anyone in any car with a TC3. Heard it, and you have driving skills that 99.9% of people do not have. Take 2 average people, and chassis DOES matter, just as the rest of the equipment does. When Novak is sending you their best motors (the benefits of being sponsored), then yeah, you do not need to mix and match pieces, dyno motors, etc etc. I am talking about being competitive on a regional and national level. We thought we were decent in VTA, we had car setups down, knew the tires, and were turning good times at our club track. We went to Nashville and got smacked down. Don't get me wrong, had an absolute blast, but a Myron 25.5 motor is nothing close to a 25.5 you go buy from the LHS. You can get one, you buy a bunch of stators and rotors and a motor dyno, and roll the dice till you get there. Several guys at our track have done this, and just like Myron, they roll us on the straights. Not saying gear is everything, but when you have a 20%+ speed difference, especially in the hands of a skilled driver, you have no chance.

That does not mean you cannot go and have fun, but if you want to be competitive on a regional/national level, VTA is no cheap, not easy, and sure not meeting any of the standards that are assumed with an "entry" class. VTA is a spec class, pure and simple. At competitive club races, and anything bigger, you WILL see people geared at low 3's and motors coming off at 180*+.

To Chris' main issue, the monopoly that Novak has. I agree, a Tekin RS in blinky is going to smoke an Edge or Cirtix. I personally think ROAR rules are too open, but I understand and agree with the lack of quality of Novak products. I have seen more Novak ESC's let out their magic smoke then everything else combined. And yes, I had 3 Tekin RS failures (which is why I now run LRP), but in other classes, you have some options. I run the Cirtix in my VTA. I like it, and am not sure if it is as fast as a Havok, but I know it will outlast the rest of my car as well. I watched a brand new fully built Novak 21.5 (ceramics bearings, vented endbells, upgraded rotor) burn up on it's 2nd run last night, geared conservatively and no error on the drivers side. Sadly, that is what I, and some others expect and experience from Novak. The issue is why do we have no other choices, not that we have every choice.

Novak gets paid, in that VTA is a successful national class, and they have the entire market. Just because USVTA does not pay them does not mean there is no monetary benefit because in the end, they still have the monopoly.

I will still run VTA, support it, and will be at the Southern Nats to get my beat down. I admit, I am a middling to average driver, but please don't tell me that it is all drivers skill when the guy next to you is able to out drag you down every straight every time. I race 1:1 cars, and for years, I drove a very underpowered car (95hp at the rear wheels) but it was lighter and better handling then some of the bigger ones. Yes I could and did beat some of those other cars. But put a good driver behind the wheel, AND then give them more powerful equipment... I have fun with it, but I also go in knowing that I am not competeing for a top spot, much less even for the A-Main.

Just me experience and opinion, and definitely not worth 2 cents.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:00 AM   #22
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Our local club races are "spirit of vta" in that we run 25.5 motors and everyone runs blinky. Personally I use a HK 35 x-car esc and viper motor and have had exactly 0 problems with electrics in 6 months of weekly racing.

If you want to admit it or not HPI and Novak have a monopoly on VTA. I know you have stated before Darkside that you would like everyone running the same chassis even if you could figure out how to make it work.

I will continue to run my local VTA races but have no intention of going and wasting any money to fix what isn't broken. I did the pre-tech when Mike's had the carpet nats and minus not having an "approved esc and motor" I passed with flying colors.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:12 AM   #23
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FWIW, our on-road program runs a spec slash class. You basically take it out of the box and run it. It is widely popular. It is spec'd down to everything. Maybe the issue isn't that too much is spec'd with the class but not enough?
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:24 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChadRacing View Post
Ok..but then you still have the guys who go out and buy 5 motors to build and match so they can get the best performance. How is that equal? I know this for a fact cause several people out our local track have done this and you can see that their motors are way stronger and faster. You can not complete with people who do this. People will always find ways to be faster just cause they have the money.
#1 that is a super lame move. Totally ridiculous and 100% opposite of the spirit of what this is all about. I understand wanting to have your stuff working the best it can, but THAT IS WHAT KILLS CLASSES. STOP YOURSELVES.

HAVE FUN....RELAX...enjoy racing.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:30 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by orcadigital View Post
Don't get me wrong, had an absolute blast, but a Myron 25.5 motor is nothing close to a 25.5 you go buy from the LHS. You can get one, you buy a bunch of stators and rotors and a motor dyno, and roll the dice till you get there. Several guys at our track have done this, and just like Myron, they roll us on the straights. Not saying gear is everything, but when you have a 20%+ speed difference, especially in the hands of a skilled driver, you have no chance.
This is awesome. I hot lapped Myron at the USVTA nats during the 3 lap qualifier with my off the shelf motor. Myron got me during the regular qualifier though.

I guess i am an awesome driver....Somebody should tell Natt (race winner over Myron) he is awesome too....LOL
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Old 06-07-2012, 10:02 AM   #26
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Im actually glad you guys run the 25.5 motors in Vintage Trans Am.
Do you realize you can gear them higher than the 17.5 motors.
Not only that you'd be able to run a Lipo pack down in a hour.
I bet 50/45 would be awesome in Vintage trans Am. If you could buy a 50 tooth spur and 45 tooth pinion. I dont beileve they go that large....LOL
Might have to end up running 64 pitch gears over 48 pitch.

Also I wasnt racing onroad when stock motors and 2500mah cells were all the rage. But people did like sticking mod armatures in a stock can to almost double thier rpms. Now with brushless that simply cannot happen. No boost and no timing puts a stop to the cheaters....
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Old 06-07-2012, 10:22 AM   #27
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wow...really guys...really...how did this get to be about me...

1st...I am not nor was I ever sponsored by NOVAK, and Novak 2 or Charlie will say the same. Now they have sent me stuff to test for the class, but Ive tested the Speed Passion as well. I also tested the 25.5 SS/Ballastic and RMF SS/Ballastic along with others behind closed doors before it went public.

2nd...Ive only have had two Novak 25.5's to myself, one being a stator that was the test stator, that I blew up with the LRP SPX. The 2nd is the one Ive been running since the rules changed...its the one I run now. I have a new in the package store bought 25.5 that I loan out to guys to try, like I did in Bama to Chris. Now Dirla did say the 25.5 SS RMF was very good, but it wasnt for me...it was to test.

3rd...I will anyday at anytime swap motors or even cars with somebody that thinks I have a "SPECIAL" Novak esc or motor. I got my GTB2 from a Hobbyshop as well as my Havok Pro...the only 2 speedos I run...(TC5 and TC6).

4th...I know that its not always the case, but most of the esc and motor breakdowns are cause ppl are trying to hard to get more out of something thats not there. Everyting I learn that makes me faster I post here. I dont hide anything and have no issue letting anyone look and tech my ride, even the motor(Snowbirds 3x's). I run a sweet spot on the motor time and have never ran a FDR below 3.7...on any track...and I travel to race and promote US VTA. Quit putting so much stress on the esc and motor and get the car to drive smooth and consistent.

5th...Robk, Ive just happen to have your number this round, and Natt sneak his butt in there...but it wont happen again, sick of wearing this dress and no ring...lol

6th.....lets all work together and just be ready for the.......(you know its coming)

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Old 06-07-2012, 10:31 AM   #28
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and for the record

TC6 manual setup "BOX STOCK"(RSD teal springs)
Novak GTB2 no fan, no drag brake ,min drive max
Novak Ballastic 25.5 w/ fan 25-30 deg time FDR 3.7
Futaba 9551 servo
Reedy Wolfpack 5000 25c lipo
Protoform J71 body

motor temp never over 120 deg and esc never over 80 deg

and other than the springs...Ive run this car the same way at every track Ive been to this year with the only change being motor time
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Old 06-07-2012, 10:31 AM   #29
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Haha, Novak needs their own class to get a win.
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Old 06-07-2012, 10:32 AM   #30
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This is awesome. I hot lapped Myron at the USVTA nats during the 3 lap qualifier with my off the shelf motor. Myron got me during the regular qualifier though.

I guess i am an awesome driver....Somebody should tell Natt (race winner over Myron) he is awesome too....LOL
+1 and I did it with a 2 year old 25.5 motor & battery using a plastic tub TA05 V2 car . Didnt have the setup for the 20 minute main though
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