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Old 06-11-2012, 06:52 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by CraigMBA View Post
If you don't like the rules, run a different class. Maybe if you focused less on this class and more on another one with less structure you'd enjoy it better.

Irony, I know!

I have raced for 22 years, and for me, a class that everyone runs the same motor and tires is great. Particularly when they really are equal. I had gave up racing sedans for a decade before this class came around. Personally I would like this class less if it were more open, and would not run it.

Where did you ever get the idea I didnt think it was okay for somebody to spend whatever they wanted? All I wrote was a racer I know spent $1500 to build a car, but that didn't stop me from passing him over in the sweeper because his car didn't handle properly. Then he worked me in the next corner.

He's not cheating, he's a sap. With a chassis and motor sponsor. Who can't find it in his heart to run either 17.5 or modified. I'm always happy to see another driver in my class. If he's happy I'm happy.

If you're not happy, go run another class.
I think you answered your own question.

I think you need to go back and read my posts on this thread. You must have me confused with someone else as I've only commented on the attitude of some of those on the thread toward the topics and not on the rules.

I don't run the class because the one time I did, at a big race, I won it easily. No fun for me. I do hate to see that the class died in the area though because we lost racers with it.
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:53 AM   #167
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As I type this I have a body, tires and motor on the way. We have a kick a#$ indoor carpet track here. We run mostly WGT in blinky. This class has become very successful as we all seem to police ourselves. If someone is messing around and getting an unfair advantage it does not go unnoticed. There are about 6 guys right now that have built these and we should be competing soon. I just picked up someones used citrix to use. Is this going to be less reliable that the other non approved speedos in blinky mode. Well all I can say is I have 2 Tekin RS's on my workbench right now that are less than a year old that are nothing more than paper weights. I hope this class works out as well as the WGT class here. It sounds like alot of fun. All driver and setup.
I assume you are talking about the FL Indoor RC Complex in Plant City. Ron had us run the inaugural race yesterday. It was a blast and the on lookers seemed to enjoy it as well. A lot of guys coming by to check out the cars and ask what they needed to join the fun. With a spare Tekin RS, I did not want to buy another ESC either, but I understand the reasons for the ESC rules. I think the investment was worth keeping the racing close.
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:54 AM   #168
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Functionally, nothing.

From a tech standpoint, it's a big deal because you have to check it. It's my understanding that the reason the list is the way it is is precisely because you don't have to check it.

If somebody goes to the trouble to do a board swap, what can I say? Cheaters gonna cheat.
Fair enough. if winning a club level race is that important where you have to cheat there are bigger issues to start.

All I am saying is I have dropped enough money in this hobby as of late to the point where I am not dropping anymore on my esc's.

Last point to play is if someones gonna cheat they are gonna do it in all classes. So whats the difference in Touring Car 17.5 or 13.5. I personally feel this was a bigger deal when people were running boosted speedo's. Past that I will be racing at a local track and I hope that when we get there for the winter that they will allow me to run it at a personal level.
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:03 AM   #169
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The difference is you can hook up a RS Pro to a computer and make adjustments.

With the others you can't.

The other issue is Tekin released a "blinky" software version (someone refresh my memory, it's been a while) that wasn't 100% zero boost. Someone put it on an osciliscope (sp?) and found that it had a small amount of boost built into the higher RPM.

That has since been resolved, but hopefully you can see the issues that raised and how much easier life is with ESCs that can't be updated via computer.

I think we all know that if Tekin released a VTA legal ESC they would sell like hotcakes.


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My only comment is geared towards the rules on speed controls. If I can show you my blinking lights on my rs pro whats the difference between that and the citrix or what not.
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:45 AM   #170
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Maybe the ROAR Pav Nats will break the mode cause of the location, but we will see. Ill be there with my AE TC6.1 RSD upgrades,LRP SXX V2, Reedy 6500 65C and Reedy Sonic 25.5 built with all the goodies...CYA there....if Im fast now....YUMMMY
Except for the part about being there, I do hope you are kidding. I race at this track regularly and despite the size, it is still possible to win with a fully legal USVTA setup.
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:04 AM   #171
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Except for the part about being there, I do hope you are kidding. I race at this track regularly and despite the size, it is still possible to win with a fully legal USVTA setup.
LOL...yeah its a joke...but a point ppl need to see...my $$$$$ is long, and if I wanted to add fuel to the fire this is very possible, but why...

ROAR Reg 5 Champs, was all the proof I needed that US VTA rules are the better rules, yes we need more esc's to the list, but companys are working on it...have some patience

Ive email this thread to 4 different ppl, that need to hear what you guys are saying...will it do any good...who knows...

The rules for the US VTA class are not setup for anybody other than the US VTA racers...if any company wants the fastest growing class to add an esc's to the list, they will step up and show how much the want to support, not just the US VTA, but the racers that support them, and are loyal to them.

Im a USVTA racer....
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:27 AM   #172
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This has to be one of the best posts ever! I hope Myron bans you from the Southern Nats for this.
I appreciate you bringing me back into the thread Bobby!

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I actually posted it on the wall at the track next to myron's pit space
I hope to see it come September! I might have to add to the list before then...

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Originally Posted by g12314 View Post
You'll buy a special body, tires, and motor to run a class but not an ESC. Sorry, I just dont understand the logic here.
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ESC and probably battery. The idea is to make the class more available to racers though, not less. For all the arguements about how VTA is supposed to be inexpensive to get into, it really should work both ways, assuming that there is no performance advantage.

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Did you guys know that there is an official thread for VTA discussion?
There are several VTA threads lurking, i personally think this argueing should be kept separate, so as not to take up the space for people asking other VTA specific questions, and not rehashing the rules.

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I don't understand all this, it's the_rules____ rules! It would be like showing up to a Nascar race with a Daytona Prototype and Nascar saying, well being as you already have this car, we'll for go the rules. It's a class with a set of RULES, period. The gentlemen who have given their time to make this class what it is have done a great job! I call them gentlemen for putting up with all this BS, it's the rules for the class plain and simple, if you want other manufacturers, contact them and complain, let them submit a part that fits the RULES. It's not run what ya brung, it's VTA.
Keep in mind, in almost every form of racing, the rules are being pushed more and more. Red Bull F1 put holes in the chassis for aerodynamics, and were forced to change it as the governing group determined them to be illegal. That was after them first saying it was legal. I have been to enough NASCAR and other types of racing, and watched cars go through tech and not pass. Everyone is always pushing the envelope of what is possible and what is legal.

Understand something though. The people who are providing all of your so-called "BS" are doing so because they care about the class and it's success, and want to see if grow even more. This is how change and improvements come around. That is why the class is now 25.5 instead of 21.5, not because Robk woke up one day and decided everyone should buy a new motor/stator. While we don't always go about it in the most proper ways, this is opinions from people who want VTA to be successful, and the more passionate about it they are, the more vocal they tend to be...for better or for worse.

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...yes we need more esc's to the list, but companys are working on it...have some patience
Maybe it was just a given, but I think that first sentence is what most people were looking for back on page 1. Knowing that companies are working with USVTA (and USVTA is working with them) to expand the options is something I am personally glad to hear.

Put my VTA car together on Friday and ran it Saturday. Definitely not on the pace yet. Setup seemed fine, punch with my old gens ace pack was severely lacking (can't find Myron's old AA's), and a blown shock in the main made it a bit squirrely for the last 2 min or so.
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:44 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Hexonox View Post
Personally I don't like being forced to use a product that has to me; substandard qualities. Simply I've gotten tired of the stress of knowing that it's not a matter of if but when any of 6 esc's that I've owned are going to melt down. And I know I'm not alone on this issue.....
I think you are alone on this issue. How the bloody he double hockey sticks are you blowing up anything on a VTA car?? The products novak supplies for the series are top notch. Just because motors are brushless doesn't mean no maintenance it just means much less maintenance. Check your motor and gearing watch your temps and I would imagine you would be fine.

To anyone who feels like they are at a disadvantage on power, I will be attending on road nats, will be running Novak motor/esc in vintage even tho it's roar rules, and will be happy to help anyone find the drivetrain losses that make them feel like their horsepower is the problem. I will also show my rear bumper to lots of guys who have wasted lots of time and money to get the best 25.5.

USVTA is hands down the cheapest on-road since legends. It is also a very difficult class to be fast in. If any one individual has a noticeable advantage at your track either he's cheating or more likely the remainder of the field is not running close to their potential.

For the record, I used to run a silver can mabuchi F1 class locally, and in a short amount of time was multiple laps faster than everyone. Everyone. They tore down my motor, made me use known battery packs from another racers supply, and made one of my suspension changes illegal. I still won by a wide margin. It's not the stuff it's you and your jenky car.

I get absolutely no free or reduced price Novak products and haven't used anything but orange since 1998. I haven't blown an ESC in so long I can't remember. Ballistic motors are good, not the best but very good and the prices are amazing.
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:59 AM   #174
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Although I understand you view and your position: I respectfully disagree. Personally I don't like being forced to use a product that has to me; substandard qualities. Simply I've gotten tired of the stress of knowing that it's not a matter of if but when any of 6 esc's that I've owned are going to melt down. I am in this hobby because it is fun for me. stressing out because I'm worried my car is going to at some point possibly catch on fire is not fun. And in the end it may be that until the generally accepted rules change; I will not run in this class. And I know I'm not alone on this issue.....
Certainly, you don't speak for me. I've had exactly zero Novak brushless failures, ever.

Even if I thought your argument had a shred of validity (I don't, IMO It's all user error), everyone else is hamstrung with the same noose.

If you burn up something in VTA with an 82 watt motor, something is wrong, and it's probably your fault.
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:24 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Adamska27 View Post
I think you are alone on this issue. How the bloody he double hockey sticks are you blowing up anything on a VTA car?? The products novak supplies for the series are top notch. Just because motors are brushless doesn't mean no maintenance it just means much less maintenance. Check your motor and gearing watch your temps and I would imagine you would be fine.

To anyone who feels like they are at a disadvantage on power, I will be attending on road nats, will be running Novak motor/esc in vintage even tho it's roar rules, and will be happy to help anyone find the drivetrain losses that make them feel like their horsepower is the problem. I will also show my rear bumper to lots of guys who have wasted lots of time and money to get the best 25.5.

USVTA is hands down the cheapest on-road since legends. It is also a very difficult class to be fast in. If any one individual has a noticeable advantage at your track either he's cheating or more likely the remainder of the field is not running close to their potential.

For the record, I used to run a silver can mabuchi F1 class locally, and in a short amount of time was multiple laps faster than everyone. Everyone. They tore down my motor, made me use known battery packs from another racers supply, and made one of my suspension changes illegal. I still won by a wide margin. It's not the stuff it's you and your jenky car.

I get absolutely no free or reduced price Novak products and haven't used anything but orange since 1998. I haven't blown an ESC in so long I can't remember. Ballistic motors are good, not the best but very good and the prices are amazing.
Well since this post seemed pretty mean spirited. I just thought I would jump in here, I have raced with the op and personally witnessed an out of the box failure of a novak edge for the op. He also has probably the smoothest drive-trains I've ever seen; the wheels spin forever so I doubt that is the issue. So don't attack the op for having an opinion based on his personal experience.

As for the actual discussion. I don't have and issue with the motors, but can see peoples point of view of wanting other choices for the ESC. Especially if they have had issues in the past with novak. On a good note Speed Passion's new club spec ESC, that has already been approved, should be in-stock in a week or two per solara in the sp thread. Hopefully the other manufacturers will take notice thanks to batman sending a heads up about this thread.

Also thanks to robk for the setup info earlier in this thread. Great stuff.
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:48 AM   #176
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I think you are alone on this issue. How the bloody he double hockey sticks are you blowing up anything on a VTA car?? The products novak supplies for the series are top notch. Just because motors are brushless doesn't mean no maintenance it just means much less maintenance. Check your motor and gearing watch your temps and I would imagine you would be fine.

To anyone who feels like they are at a disadvantage on power, I will be attending on road nats, will be running Novak motor/esc in vintage even tho it's roar rules, and will be happy to help anyone find the drivetrain losses that make them feel like their horsepower is the problem. I will also show my rear bumper to lots of guys who have wasted lots of time and money to get the best 25.5.

USVTA is hands down the cheapest on-road since legends. It is also a very difficult class to be fast in. If any one individual has a noticeable advantage at your track either he's cheating or more likely the remainder of the field is not running close to their potential.

For the record, I used to run a silver can mabuchi F1 class locally, and in a short amount of time was multiple laps faster than everyone. Everyone. They tore down my motor, made me use known battery packs from another racers supply, and made one of my suspension changes illegal. I still won by a wide margin. It's not the stuff it's you and your jenky car.

I get absolutely no free or reduced price Novak products and haven't used anything but orange since 1998. I haven't blown an ESC in so long I can't remember. Ballistic motors are good, not the best but very good and the prices are amazing.
While I agree there are some cheaters out there you have to watch what you say. If you are going to acuse someone of cheating you better have a reason why. We had an incident where someone was accused of cheating and they werent any faster than any other car on the straight but they made up time in the corners. To me it's simple someone has a better setup.

I like the idea of the class for sure. I don't mind repping Novak as I used to run Cyclone's all day long and actually was the first company I shopped for when I got back into the hobby to find that there stuff was harder to get and no one carried an open esc (no limit on turns).
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:26 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Adamska27 View Post
I think you are alone on this issue. How the bloody he double hockey sticks are you blowing up anything on a VTA car?? The products novak supplies for the series are top notch. Just because motors are brushless doesn't mean no maintenance it just means much less maintenance. Check your motor and gearing watch your temps and I would imagine you would be fine.
He is not alone, otherwise this thread would have died 10 pages ago. Just because you haven't blown one up (I haven't either), does not mean that their products are top notch. As has been said several times, it is not just one person having issues, but somewhere around half a dozen different people, different products, different times, just at our track.

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To anyone who feels like they are at a disadvantage on power, I will be attending on road nats, will be running Novak motor/esc in vintage even tho it's roar rules, and will be happy to help anyone find the drivetrain losses that make them feel like their horsepower is the problem. I will also show my rear bumper to lots of guys who have wasted lots of time and money to get the best 25.5.

USVTA is hands down the cheapest on-road since legends. It is also a very difficult class to be fast in. If any one individual has a noticeable advantage at your track either he's cheating or more likely the remainder of the field is not running close to their potential.

For the record, I used to run a silver can mabuchi F1 class locally, and in a short amount of time was multiple laps faster than everyone. Everyone. They tore down my motor, made me use known battery packs from another racers supply, and made one of my suspension changes illegal. I still won by a wide margin. It's not the stuff it's you and your jenky car.
Welcome to MY personal issue with VTA. This attitude. You suck, i am faster, my dad can beat up your dad, my RC car was crafted from a plastic spoon, a christmas ornament and a breath mint from Chick Fil A and I can still beat you. I can believe it from Myron, but not sure about anyone else.

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Certainly, you don't speak for me. I've had exactly zero Novak brushless failures, ever.

Even if I thought your argument had a shred of validity (I don't, IMO It's all user error), everyone else is hamstrung with the same noose.

If you burn up something in VTA with an 82 watt motor, something is wrong, and it's probably your fault.
If there was another motor option that was non Novak, and another ESC or 2, also non Novak, and they did not provide a performance advantage or disadvantage, how would that be a bad thing? Would you quit because Novak is not the only option?
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:39 AM   #178
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Thats why USA on road racing is so far behind then other country like Europe and Japen....look at the recent ETS and ATS event, or TITC....hand out 1 brand esc and 1 brand motor...200-300 entries each. They decide the winner base on the car setup and racing skill...........not the MOTOR and ESC.

About motor choice...it is not going to happen. Simply a marketing decision. You can talk to the other brand all days and they will not going to make a 25.5 to share a very small VTA market.

I personally banned the production of the 25.5 of my brand simply because I am a strong believer of "one brand" spec rule. I support that rule and believe the NOVAK line of 25.5 are a good choice for VTA.

About ESC....6 choices to choose from. All $100 and below....who cannot really afford a $100 ESC that can race whole summer or winter or even longer for any RC racing..? If spending $100 for a ESC is a problem, try a used one....or RC racing is no longer the option. Quit.

Not to mention...it is a CHOICE for you to pick the best ESC for VTA within these 6 units, go ask around, or ask here on Rctech, and pick the one that you think is the best...........

Let all the racing happen on the track, let the lap times answer all your question........not on the internet and on the rule.
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:44 AM   #179
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If there was another motor option that was non Novak, and another ESC or 2, also non Novak, and they did not provide a performance advantage or disadvantage, how would that be a bad thing? Would you quit because Novak is not the only option?
Absolutely correct....but that class is called STOCK 17.5 TC, or Super Stock blinky 13.5 TC or....MOD TC...3 choices to choose from, and you want to add the 4th one...? Serioiusly..?
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:53 AM   #180
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Absolutely correct....but that class is called STOCK 17.5 TC, or Super Stock blinky 13.5 TC or....MOD TC...3 choices to choose from, and you want to add the 4th one...? Serioiusly..?
By your logic, we should onily have 1 ESC, 1 chassis, 1 battery, etc. You banned your own 25.5, but you did not ban the Cirtix? What is the difference?

Yes seriously, I do not understand your logic, because you forgot all the 12th scale classes, USGT, WGT, not to mention all the offroad classes, not to mention all the nitro classes. VTA is what is run at our local track, and it is what I personally enjoy running. That I chose to run a speed passion ESC is my choice, which while it seems to be slower, I prefer because of it's smoothness and reliability. I never expected the speed passion person to come here and tell me to dump it for a Novak.

My turn...seriously?
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