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Old 06-12-2012, 10:28 AM   #301
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I love the assumptions...I don't run a lot of pan car for my own personal reasons,
So like I said, you don't run a lot of pancar.

13.5 blinky would be okay as the bottom class for 12th scale. Hell our home track is 63'x33' and in deferrence to the boost haters we run 10.5 blinky.
Boost like everything else in this hobby is what you make of it. A properly tuned boosted pancar drives just like a blinky car everywhere but the straight. If an individual can't handle a ton of boost then they shouldn't dial in so much.

There are classes designed for "slow, fair, level-playing field" racers. VTA and USGT are tailor made for people who just wanna race without pushing the envelope. The old school "Stock" type classes were designed to be lessons in how to move up the ladder, the further we detune these classes, the less effective they become at teaching us how to go fast, making the move to modified even more difficult. This attitude is why we aren't really a force on the World Stage in On-Road anymore.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:16 AM   #302
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So like I said, you don't run a lot of pancar.

13.5 blinky would be okay as the bottom class for 12th scale. Hell our home track is 63'x33' and in deferrence to the boost haters we run 10.5 blinky.
Boost like everything else in this hobby is what you make of it. A properly tuned boosted pancar drives just like a blinky car everywhere but the straight. If an individual can't handle a ton of boost then they shouldn't dial in so much.

There are classes designed for "slow, fair, level-playing field" racers. VTA and USGT are tailor made for people who just wanna race without pushing the envelope. The old school "Stock" type classes were designed to be lessons in how to move up the ladder, the further we detune these classes, the less effective they become at teaching us how to go fast, making the move to modified even more difficult. This attitude is why we aren't really a force on the World Stage in On-Road anymore.
You love to argue I can see that by the many posts I read from you, and It is clear you like boost. I disagree with your approach, but that does not mean I am right. Don't be fooled just because someone does not run a lot of pan car does not mean that they don't have the ability to do it. I own a few pan cars but they sit in my basement collecting dust because in the end driving a pan car only gets you better at driving pan cars. Learning how to drive with the crutch of foam tires does not make for very well rounded drivers in my opinion. For me learning how to manipulate a fast rubber tire car with spec tire provides me with the diversity in driving that forces me to get better at all kinds of classes and platforms. I cannot just go in the pits and change to different compound of tires. It forces me to figure it out and that for me is the fun of racing. Everyone is different in their approach and I spend a lot of time locally telling people to slow down. I have never said go faster to a newer driver. Never, not once...

I think the reason why the US lacks on the world stage in on-road has more to do with pan cars then anything else here in the US. I am not trying to start an argument, but facts are facts. The rest of the world races mostly touring cars and very little pan car. Here in the US I would say it is a 50/50 split. If the US had the same amount (percentage wise) of touring car drivers we would be more of a factor around the world. It is common in the US for racers to only race pan car classes and that is not the case outside the US. All of the drivers in the A main at worlds this year will drive both 1/12th scale and TC I seriously doubt their will be 1/12th scale only drivers in the main at worlds. The division between classes and groups in the US is a big problem...You go the TC guys saying that pan cars suck and visa versa on the Pan car side. I hear condescending comments around every corner from the guys running pan cars. I think Taxi, lumber wagon, grocery getter...to name a few. All of this negative tone just continues to drive division between racers. I personally get tired of hearing it all of the negative tone from each side of racing. It is the same problem between off-road and on-road, same BS different groups. I think that there is too much dilution of classes to really get anyone good at any one thing. I mostly focus on running rubber tire TC, because I think it is hard to get really good at a lot of things, so I try to focus my energy to one class. This for me really helps. Trying to run too many different classes in one night or at one race will make you mediocre at all of them. If you focus you get better in my experience. If the US ran all TC or all pan car I bet we would be a serious factor in that class, but if we continue to have so many classes we will be mediocre at all of them as a group and that is what I see happening.

People need to stop getting hung up on speed...it really does not matter. What does matter is the ability to drive your car consistently for 5 or 8 minutes based on your class. The speed of the car only matters to bashers and wanna be racers..."Hey how fast does that thing go?" is something I hear every time I talk to someone who knows very little about RC or racing in general. You could have the fastest car (with a 4.0 motor) at the track and be more then 3 seconds off of a blinky 21.5 1/12th scale pan car.

The issue with your theory in my opinion is that everything continues to get faster and as such people are being left behind because they did not give themselves the time to even learn the beginner classes and slower speeds. RC is a progression on skills and you must crawl before you can run. You guys want everyone to run out of the gate and all this does is piss people off and send them further away from RC. It has to be easy and fun or people won't stick with it, and then over time as people improve they can move up. Throwing a newbie into a 17.5 boosted TC or 1/12th scale is the worst Idea I have ever heard. This approach really drives people away, fast.

BTW- VTA when it was popular here locally was the most competitive class we had...guys were doing whatever they could to go faster and this drove a lot of guys away. I never personally got into it but a lot of guys did and when they were getting beat by laps in vintage they got really discouraged. They quit and have never come back.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:50 AM   #303
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So like I said, you don't run a lot of pancar.

13.5 blinky would be okay as the bottom class for 12th scale. Hell our home track is 63'x33' and in deferrence to the boost haters we run 10.5 blinky.
Boost like everything else in this hobby is what you make of it.

This is the problem; boost is a headache for most people on what settings you need to use to get the most out of a particular track layout based on straights and corners so here goes one more thing that you have to worry about let alone having the right speed control to do it with. Would I have 3 black diamonds had boost never came around? Would Tekin be the power house it is filling a high percent out of 10 spots in boosted “A” mains most times And this after we took worrying about what to do to your motor and battery from the brushed and nimh days. Things are easier with no boost and that makes me concentrate on my setup and driving instead of worrying about which speed control setting I may have screwed up which if you’re beating me Ian I need to do more often. I don't want to worry that my boost comes in at 1000rpm instead of 750rpm because of this one corner that made it push when I got a good run at it. I want consistent throttle, not a 150 shot NOS bottle that makes up for the short comings of the motor. As you said your track runs 10.5 non boost which gives you back the fun factor. My track has a few novice drivers and some pro drivers running 12th scale so we went with 13.5. Just because Roar says 17.5 no boost is stock doesn't mean that YOUR track has to run by that. You ultimately have to decide for your track what will keep the MAJORITY happy and keep racers coming back. That's track owner 101... Because not everyone is going to be happy with what classes you run and that usually includes the track owner. As such my track runs 10.5 offroad as the super stock class when I know a 13.5 is more than fast enough for the 95' straight. Keep the racers happy or you'll just have your own personal practice track. You keep on bringing up 17.5 should be the place to push the cars. Again I thought that was what mod was for. Stock is where MOST tracks start. There are still tracks that don’t have VTA or GT. Get over that as those 2 classes are only recent developments as most of those drivers didn’t want to run boost or couldn’t handle it. Personally I would rather see a “A” “B” “C” TC then a “A” TC “A” GT “A” VTA but I can’t seem to get it in peoples head that racing with 4 other people is like dating your cousin. Yes she might be 3 years older then you but you’re not going to get out of the gene pool and really learn what the real world is out there. Dating your best friend’s sister’s best friends cousin visiting from California is much better. And you’re going to learn more.
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Old 06-12-2012, 02:42 PM   #304
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So like I said, you don't run a lot of pancar.

13.5 blinky would be okay as the bottom class for 12th scale. Hell our home track is 63'x33' and in deferrence to the boost haters we run 10.5 blinky.
You might whine about boost haters, but if the majority don't want to run boost then complaining about it isn't going to change the mind of the majority.

In the UK we run 10.5 blinky as the main national class and that was voted in by the drivers, not imposed on them. They definitely aren't slow and they are much nicer to drive than boosted, so much so that if we had kept boosted there would be a lot less drivers at the nationals. If you want to run boosted then you run in mod.

We are currently experimenting with 17.5 blinky as a stock class, and the top drivers are enjoying the challenge. Cars can race nose to tail for lap after lap without piling into each other and there is literally zero tyre wear. Yes they are slow compared to other classes, but the biggest difference in performance is entirely down to the driver, if you can't drive consistently on the racing line you haven't got the extra power to cover your lack of driving skill. The hardest part is getting hold of the 50+ teeth pinions.

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There are classes designed for "slow, fair, level-playing field" racers. VTA and USGT are tailor made for people who just wanna race without pushing the envelope. The old school "Stock" type classes were designed to be lessons in how to move up the ladder, the further we detune these classes, the less effective they become at teaching us how to go fast, making the move to modified even more difficult. This attitude is why we aren't really a force on the World Stage in On-Road anymore.
You can't throw in that the US isn't a force in on road anymore as an excuse, the US never was a force in touring cars since the Worlds started, and if it wasn't for Rick Howart and Paul Lemieux the US would have had no real presence in 1/12th at all for the last 10 years - that seriously predates VTA and brushless motors. Of course what 99% of racers do has nothing to do with the very tiny percentage that actually takes part in international meetings.

As for going slow, in all the slower classes around the one thing that comes to the fore is driving ability every time. With limited power it is all down to whether you can set your car up properly and whether you can drive it, if you can't carry speed through the corners you don't have a powerful motor to rely on down the straights to make up the deficit.
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Old 06-12-2012, 03:43 PM   #305
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If you want to run boosted then you run in mod.
+1. My 11 year old daughter ran mod at titc 2012. She was "girl" enough to do it.
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:05 PM   #306
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You might whine about boost haters, but if the majority don't want to run boost then complaining about it isn't going to change the mind of the majority.

In the UK we run 10.5 blinky as the main national class and that was voted in by the drivers, not imposed on them. They definitely aren't slow and they are much nicer to drive than boosted, so much so that if we had kept boosted there would be a lot less drivers at the nationals. If you want to run boosted then you run in mod.

We are currently experimenting with 17.5 blinky as a stock class, and the top drivers are enjoying the challenge. Cars can race nose to tail for lap after lap without piling into each other and there is literally zero tyre wear. Yes they are slow compared to other classes, but the biggest difference in performance is entirely down to the driver, if you can't drive consistently on the racing line you haven't got the extra power to cover your lack of driving skill. The hardest part is getting hold of the 50+ teeth pinions.



You can't throw in that the US isn't a force in on road anymore as an excuse, the US never was a force in touring cars since the Worlds started, and if it wasn't for Rick Howart and Paul Lemieux the US would have had no real presence in 1/12th at all for the last 10 years - that seriously predates VTA and brushless motors. Of course what 99% of racers do has nothing to do with the very tiny percentage that actually takes part in international meetings.

As for going slow, in all the slower classes around the one thing that comes to the fore is driving ability every time. With limited power it is all down to whether you can set your car up properly and whether you can drive it, if you can't carry speed through the corners you don't have a powerful motor to rely on down the straights to make up the deficit.
Bravo...great Post I agree 100%!
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:37 PM   #307
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I love the assumptions...I don't run a lot of pan car for my own personal reasons, but I have run a bunch of 17.5 blinky 1/12th scale in the past and it is quite boring for someone that has been racing a while and has the skills to go faster. 17.5 blinky12th class is a great class for people new to pan car racing. It allows the driver to focus on the steering part of racing without have to worry as much about the finesse of throttle. I personally think that for club racing, 13.5 1/12th scale is the perfect class for more experienced drivers. Linear throttle with predictable curve from the top to the bottom. Mod 1/12th scale is hard and is really only suited for really experienced drivers that know how to setup a car and drive a really fast car. Watching newer guys run modified is just as much fun as watching guys blow out every corner when the boost kicks in.

Boost creates a very unnatural feeling in the throttle curve and is really hard to learn on because you have to be smooth with the throttle late in the curve rather then early. If you are running boost then the only thing you are really practicing is when to slow down, but not working on the hardest part of throttle control which has more to do with rip out of a corner that a faster motor has. For me personally I think there is more value in learning how to drive and setup my car, which is the biggest bang for the buck, than winning with electronics. If you are a good driver and have a great foundation then you can drive anything, but if you are fast because you figured out how to setup a boost in your car then in the long run the driver with better driving skills will always prevail.

I spend a lot of time at the track and putting down laps. For me personally exploring faster motors and more speed only comes when I have figured out how to master what speed I currently have. Every time I try to step up to faster stuff I get frustrated and go back to the slower speeds. I continue to work at it and then eventually when I am ready I go faster it is an easier transition. This works for me but may not work for everyone. It is kinda like going into a cold pool or lake...at first you dip your toe in, then up to the ankles, then to the knees and finally a leap into the shallows. I think racing is the same way and when people skip all of the preliminary steps they jump in without testing the waters, they run out and never come back.

You cannot get better at this hobby/sport by wishing, spending, hoping, or reading. You have to race, practice and learn at your own pace. And then when you think you are pretty good, you have to practice and race some more. That is why I think learning via repetition is the best way to improve. And for the most part driving a non-boosted car regardless of motor has the same repetition and similar muscle memory. The difference is when and how much to apply throttle and brake. That obviously changes based on the motor you are running. Going between boosted and non-boosted has very different inputs based on how the throttle is delivered. If you are running one class with boost and another without boost then you are learning how to do the same repetition twice as slow then if you ran both boosted or non-boosted only. When you get to modified it is very hard to control and if you are used to the power coming in late rather then early then you will be in serious trouble.

In rubber tire touring car where I spend most of my time running the ability to deliver power without wheel slip is a huge challenge as you go faster and have more power. You have to be much smoother on throttle then a modified 1/12th scale for a few reasons. One, 1/12th scale is 1S so by it's nature has less bottom end rip and two, you get very little wheel spin with foam tires compared to rubber tire.

I think for me learning how to go faster without the use of electronic features that may or may not survive, adds the most amount of value to my driving. Because when you loose that feature you still have to go back and learn how to drive and setup a car for maximum results. You cannot just go back to the pits and turn up your boost, you actually have to figure out how to go faster with what you have. Mean while the rest of us are learning to go faster without the use of artificial means.

If your track loves boost then fine..run it, whatever will keep people in the seats. For us locally being able to buy a $60 non-boosted speed control that is just as fast as the $250 speedo seems to be more reasonable for most folks. All of our classes these days are non-boosted and it seems to work very well, and because of it our drivers are getting better because they are spending their time working on the setup and driving rather then wasting cycles on trying to figure out thier boost settings. It is fun to take speed control setups from the pros, but to be honest is not really a great a idea if you do not drive like them. Watching Hara run a Tekin is very interesting, watching a newer driver with Hara's Tekin setup is hilarious. In the end most newer drivers simply do not have the skills to know how they want their cars to feel and adding boost into that mix just adds insult to injury.

Sorry for the long winded post
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You love to argue I can see that by the many posts I read from you, and It is clear you like boost. I disagree with your approach, but that does not mean I am right. Don't be fooled just because someone does not run a lot of pan car does not mean that they don't have the ability to do it. I own a few pan cars but they sit in my basement collecting dust because in the end driving a pan car only gets you better at driving pan cars. Learning how to drive with the crutch of foam tires does not make for very well rounded drivers in my opinion. For me learning how to manipulate a fast rubber tire car with spec tire provides me with the diversity in driving that forces me to get better at all kinds of classes and platforms. I cannot just go in the pits and change to different compound of tires. It forces me to figure it out and that for me is the fun of racing. Everyone is different in their approach and I spend a lot of time locally telling people to slow down. I have never said go faster to a newer driver. Never, not once...

I think the reason why the US lacks on the world stage in on-road has more to do with pan cars then anything else here in the US. I am not trying to start an argument, but facts are facts. The rest of the world races mostly touring cars and very little pan car. Here in the US I would say it is a 50/50 split. If the US had the same amount (percentage wise) of touring car drivers we would be more of a factor around the world. It is common in the US for racers to only race pan car classes and that is not the case outside the US. All of the drivers in the A main at worlds this year will drive both 1/12th scale and TC I seriously doubt their will be 1/12th scale only drivers in the main at worlds. The division between classes and groups in the US is a big problem...You go the TC guys saying that pan cars suck and visa versa on the Pan car side. I hear condescending comments around every corner from the guys running pan cars. I think Taxi, lumber wagon, grocery getter...to name a few. All of this negative tone just continues to drive division between racers. I personally get tired of hearing it all of the negative tone from each side of racing. It is the same problem between off-road and on-road, same BS different groups. I think that there is too much dilution of classes to really get anyone good at any one thing. I mostly focus on running rubber tire TC, because I think it is hard to get really good at a lot of things, so I try to focus my energy to one class. This for me really helps. Trying to run too many different classes in one night or at one race will make you mediocre at all of them. If you focus you get better in my experience. If the US ran all TC or all pan car I bet we would be a serious factor in that class, but if we continue to have so many classes we will be mediocre at all of them as a group and that is what I see happening.

People need to stop getting hung up on speed...it really does not matter. What does matter is the ability to drive your car consistently for 5 or 8 minutes based on your class. The speed of the car only matters to bashers and wanna be racers..."Hey how fast does that thing go?" is something I hear every time I talk to someone who knows very little about RC or racing in general. You could have the fastest car (with a 4.0 motor) at the track and be more then 3 seconds off of a blinky 21.5 1/12th scale pan car.

The issue with your theory in my opinion is that everything continues to get faster and as such people are being left behind because they did not give themselves the time to even learn the beginner classes and slower speeds. RC is a progression on skills and you must crawl before you can run. You guys want everyone to run out of the gate and all this does is piss people off and send them further away from RC. It has to be easy and fun or people won't stick with it, and then over time as people improve they can move up. Throwing a newbie into a 17.5 boosted TC or 1/12th scale is the worst Idea I have ever heard. This approach really drives people away, fast.

BTW- VTA when it was popular here locally was the most competitive class we had...guys were doing whatever they could to go faster and this drove a lot of guys away. I never personally got into it but a lot of guys did and when they were getting beat by laps in vintage they got really discouraged. They quit and have never come back.
Ian is the one who loves to argue? Judging by the 12 paragraphs alone I think you should maybe look in the mirror. You seem to really want to impose youre point of veiw on everyone who will listen.
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Old 06-12-2012, 05:41 PM   #308
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You can't throw in that the US isn't a force in on road anymore as an excuse, the US never was a force in touring cars since the Worlds started, and if it wasn't for Rick Howart and Paul Lemieux the US would have had no real presence in 1/12th at all for the last 10 years - that seriously predates VTA and brushless motors.
Barry Baker, Mark Pavidis, Tosolini, Jon Orr, Josh Cyrul, Mike Blackstock and Billy Easton, among others, might disagree with you.
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Old 06-12-2012, 05:49 PM   #309
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Regarding unatural feel or having to constantly retune.
Some of the boost ESCs have very poor feel and throttle curve. One brand in particular with previous versions of software.

Others ESCs do not have bad feel. My ESC running boosted feels better than some other ESCs when running blinky, it is super smooth. The only difference is the throttle curve is a little more linear and a slightly easier to control inital throttle.

Needing to constantly retune indicates your tune is wrong, once the dynamic timing is setup correctly for maximum power at all rpm with a particularly motor you should in theory never have to retune. Given just about everyone in RC is a tinker to some level we will be occasionally making further adjustments trying to find the edge but that is part of the fun.

With either technology blinky or dynamic timing if the speed is too fast or too slow for the class the ESC blinky or boost is irrelevant. Change the motor turns to control the speed.

If you never have to lift with 1/12 and a blinky 17.5T then run a 13.5 or 10.5 if you want to stay blinky.

If the speed is too fast when running 13.5T boosted then run a 17.5T or 21.5T if you want to stay boosted.

As for those who say if you want to run boost run mod well I will tell you why I don't run mod.

I pretty much only run club days now not big events and whilst the lap time differences are not huge between 13.5T boosted and mod the power difference is. The wear on tyres and driving is 2-3 times higher when running mod compared with 13.5T boosted. There is also another aspect on tight technical tracks I no longer have the reaction times to run mod. On open flowing tracks I could run mod but on the tighter tracks where I race at 90% of the time I simply cannot react fast enough. Not to mention you will never come close to using all the power available.

I admit I am not the worlds best driver but I should point out that mod often doesn't have a class at these tracks often only 2 entries at most and they normal end up running with 13.5. Where as there will be 20 plus drivers in 13.5T boosted.

So I could run a class that often doesn't run and has more power than you can ever use or a class with lots of entires that has good speed and great competition not to mention affordable.
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Old 06-12-2012, 05:51 PM   #310
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Barry Baker, Mark Pavidis, Jon Orr, Josh Cyrul, Mike Blackstock and Billy Easton, among others, might disagree with you.
So which IFMAR on road worlds A finals have they qualified for in the last 10 years? To be honest, in most of those years it's only been Lemieux and Howart who had managed to get into the top 20.
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Old 06-12-2012, 05:54 PM   #311
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So which IFMAR on road worlds A finals have they qualified for in the last 10 years? To be honest, in most of those years it's only been Lemieux and Howart who had managed to get into the top 20.
You said since the tc worlds started which was 1998.

Was it 2002 when Barry Baker threw it away in the 3rd main? Orr had a shot at wining 1/12 in 2006 (italy??)I think?

I'm not saying these guys won (Baker should have), just that they made the main.

Besides PL and Hohwart...
Cyrul 1/12 main in Germany 2010
2004 Billy Easton & Matt Francis sedan Blackstock Lufaso 1/12
2006 Jon Orr Mike Dumas 1/12 Italy
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:09 PM   #312
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Enough with the pissing match already. None of this is helping anything, just makes ya sound like a bunch of whiners.

Just put your ESC's on blinky and let's go racing. Good god its starting to sound like a grade school in here.
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:25 PM   #313
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So which motor/batt combo is the best for this month?
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:37 PM   #314
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Good god its starting to sound like a grade school in here.
Is it nap time yet?
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:41 PM   #315
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Wow . . .i think sometimes we racers are our own worst enemy . . .it seems like TC is kinda growing again . . .I think it is great that scotty and the IIC went no boost, because it may bring some consistency back to TC racing. Hopefully the guys that travel to race the Big events IIC, birds, champs, roar nats etc will have the same basic classes to race at, under an older formula with a new name. 17.5 stock./13.5 super stock/ mod like 27t stock/19t superstock /mod. Go to a big race and you can run 2 TC classes 17.5 and 13.5 or 13.5 and mod. For you local club races maybe tweak it a bit to keep the locals happy at your track. but i agree with what EA said i rather have a 17.5 A-B-C at a local club race then a 17.5-13.5-Mod A-Vintage A with 4-6 guys in each class. Especially if the 17.5 times are very close to the 13.5 times . . . like 2 tenths a lap. rather see everyone just run 17.5 and have an A-B and a C
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