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Old 06-11-2012, 06:19 PM   #286
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If this were the case, I'd end my pro-boost arguments. Lock down the endbell timing and all the tuning rotors, and the BS stops. This whole "spec" esc but allowing ceramic bearings and different rotors crap is just plain stupid. All we've done is make it less about what you actually know, and more about your willingness to buy and then test more motor crap. At least if we
totally lock down motors, all we have to find is the best possible packs.
Trinity would love for that to happen, then their motors sells will go back to where they were in the brushed motor days.......
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:32 PM   #287
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While I don't fully support boost going away...I do feel some bit of relief in that the classes are finally starting to stabilize.
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:31 PM   #288
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I think they had it right at the birds. 17.5 nr for stock, 17.5 boosted for "expert". You don't want to deal with boost, run stock. When you want to start moving up, you don't need to buy another motor, just add some boost during the week and move up when you're ready. 17.5 boosted isn't too far off from mod for indoor racing.
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:53 PM   #289
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I think they had it right at the birds. 17.5 nr for stock, 17.5 boosted for "expert". You don't want to deal with boost, run stock. When you want to start moving up, you don't need to buy another motor, just add some boost during the week and move up when you're ready. 17.5 boosted isn't too far off from mod for indoor racing.
That maybe the case for lap times, but drivability on the other hand is a bit different. If you think 17.5 feels anything like mod then I would suggest running some more modified. The differences between the two is quite remarkable. Adjusting motor to divid classes is a good approach. Boost has done nothing but drive people away because of all of the complications and the race to who has the fastest stuff. I love watching guys that cannot even run a blinky class try to handle a boosted car at the end of the straightaway. I am not a big fan of boost as you might be reading, because I think the difficulty of RC is at the lower revs not at the higher revs of the motors. Learning to control a motor that has more rip down low is what separates average drivers from great drivers. It doesn't take skill to hold a throttle for longer...it does take skill to control a 1,000 pounds of rip coming out of a corner. At least in my experience I prefer power to be linear and smooth from start to finish and I feel that more in the non boosted classes. Every body has different experiences and brings a different view, but the differences between 17.5 boosted and mod are like night and day.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:20 PM   #290
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I love watching guys that cannot even run a blinky class try to handle a boosted car at the end of the straightaway.
We have a few of those. We've started running mod outdoors and I can tell you that I'm having a blast with it. Prior to this, 17.5 boosted was the best class to run. Blinky was not very entertaining to me at all. Inside on the carpet, blinky is more tolerable, but I still like the rip of a boosted car. One thing we can all agree on it this conversation will continue until boost is gone for good and then we'll all talk about the "good ole days".
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:29 PM   #291
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I love watching guys that cannot even run a blinky class try to handle a boosted car at the end of the straightaway.

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Old 06-11-2012, 11:06 PM   #292
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I love watching guys that cannot even run a blinky class try to handle a boosted car at the end of the straightaway.
AND, there is the added bonus of being able to pick up their equipment CHEAP the week after.
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:51 PM   #293
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I like running MOD at least when I get beat I know the driver is better than me. On spec class their is a lot of hocus pocus in spec motor and it's very frustrating at times when the other guy running supposidely a a spec motor
But just past you down the straight you were like what the "F"....
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:55 PM   #294
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I am not a big fan of boost as you might be reading, because I think the difficulty of RC is at the lower revs not at the higher revs of the motors. Learning to control a motor that has more rip down low is what separates average drivers from great drivers. It doesn't take skill to hold a throttle for longer...it does take skill to control a 1,000 pounds of rip coming out of a corner. At least in my experience I prefer power to be linear and smooth from start to finish and I feel that more in the non boosted classes.
Obviously you don't run alot of pancar. 17.5 blinky 12th scale at MOST tracks is STRAPPED for the entire eight minutes. There is ZERO "throttle feel" when the trigger is clamped to the point of hearing the plastic strain under your grip.

17.5 blinky is honestly probably too slow for TC on a lot of tracks too. The reason 17.5 boosted times are close to Mod times in TC racing is because a TC can handle 17.5 boosted power, but a 4.0 in those things is insane due to the lack of grip afforded by the rubber tires. So your argument for throttle control as a sign of driver skill in spec classes is actually hurt by a blinky formula. A properly set-up boosted car has just as much bottom end as a blinky car, but also has the distinct advantage of being faster on the straight. That being said, you'd actually be on the throttle for a shorter period of time in boosted, because the car is fast enough that you actually have to lift........
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:38 AM   #295
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Obviously you don't run alot of pancar. 17.5 blinky 12th scale at MOST tracks is STRAPPED for the entire eight minutes. There is ZERO "throttle feel" when the trigger is clamped to the point of hearing the plastic strain under your grip.

17.5 blinky is honestly probably too slow for TC on a lot of tracks too. The reason 17.5 boosted times are close to Mod times in TC racing is because a TC can handle 17.5 boosted power, but a 4.0 in those things is insane due to the lack of grip afforded by the rubber tires. So your argument for throttle control as a sign of driver skill in spec classes is actually hurt by a blinky formula. A properly set-up boosted car has just as much bottom end as a blinky car, but also has the distinct advantage of being faster on the straight. That being said, you'd actually be on the throttle for a shorter period of time in boosted, because the car is fast enough that you actually have to lift........
I love the assumptions...I don't run a lot of pan car for my own personal reasons, but I have run a bunch of 17.5 blinky 1/12th scale in the past and it is quite boring for someone that has been racing a while and has the skills to go faster. 17.5 blinky12th class is a great class for people new to pan car racing. It allows the driver to focus on the steering part of racing without have to worry as much about the finesse of throttle. I personally think that for club racing, 13.5 1/12th scale is the perfect class for more experienced drivers. Linear throttle with predictable curve from the top to the bottom. Mod 1/12th scale is hard and is really only suited for really experienced drivers that know how to setup a car and drive a really fast car. Watching newer guys run modified is just as much fun as watching guys blow out every corner when the boost kicks in.

Boost creates a very unnatural feeling in the throttle curve and is really hard to learn on because you have to be smooth with the throttle late in the curve rather then early. If you are running boost then the only thing you are really practicing is when to slow down, but not working on the hardest part of throttle control which has more to do with rip out of a corner that a faster motor has. For me personally I think there is more value in learning how to drive and setup my car, which is the biggest bang for the buck, than winning with electronics. If you are a good driver and have a great foundation then you can drive anything, but if you are fast because you figured out how to setup a boost in your car then in the long run the driver with better driving skills will always prevail.

I spend a lot of time at the track and putting down laps. For me personally exploring faster motors and more speed only comes when I have figured out how to master what speed I currently have. Every time I try to step up to faster stuff I get frustrated and go back to the slower speeds. I continue to work at it and then eventually when I am ready I go faster it is an easier transition. This works for me but may not work for everyone. It is kinda like going into a cold pool or lake...at first you dip your toe in, then up to the ankles, then to the knees and finally a leap into the shallows. I think racing is the same way and when people skip all of the preliminary steps they jump in without testing the waters, they run out and never come back.

You cannot get better at this hobby/sport by wishing, spending, hoping, or reading. You have to race, practice and learn at your own pace. And then when you think you are pretty good, you have to practice and race some more. That is why I think learning via repetition is the best way to improve. And for the most part driving a non-boosted car regardless of motor has the same repetition and similar muscle memory. The difference is when and how much to apply throttle and brake. That obviously changes based on the motor you are running. Going between boosted and non-boosted has very different inputs based on how the throttle is delivered. If you are running one class with boost and another without boost then you are learning how to do the same repetition twice as slow then if you ran both boosted or non-boosted only. When you get to modified it is very hard to control and if you are used to the power coming in late rather then early then you will be in serious trouble.

In rubber tire touring car where I spend most of my time running the ability to deliver power without wheel slip is a huge challenge as you go faster and have more power. You have to be much smoother on throttle then a modified 1/12th scale for a few reasons. One, 1/12th scale is 1S so by it's nature has less bottom end rip and two, you get very little wheel spin with foam tires compared to rubber tire.

I think for me learning how to go faster without the use of electronic features that may or may not survive, adds the most amount of value to my driving. Because when you loose that feature you still have to go back and learn how to drive and setup a car for maximum results. You cannot just go back to the pits and turn up your boost, you actually have to figure out how to go faster with what you have. Mean while the rest of us are learning to go faster without the use of artificial means.

If your track loves boost then fine..run it, whatever will keep people in the seats. For us locally being able to buy a $60 non-boosted speed control that is just as fast as the $250 speedo seems to be more reasonable for most folks. All of our classes these days are non-boosted and it seems to work very well, and because of it our drivers are getting better because they are spending their time working on the setup and driving rather then wasting cycles on trying to figure out thier boost settings. It is fun to take speed control setups from the pros, but to be honest is not really a great a idea if you do not drive like them. Watching Hara run a Tekin is very interesting, watching a newer driver with Hara's Tekin setup is hilarious. In the end most newer drivers simply do not have the skills to know how they want their cars to feel and adding boost into that mix just adds insult to injury.

Sorry for the long winded post
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:43 AM   #296
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Mod 1/12th scale is hard and is really only suited for really experienced drivers that know how to setup a car and drive a really fast car. Watching newer guys run modified is just as much fun as watching guys blow out every corner when the boost kicks in.
Crying myself to sleep tonight, thanks Art.
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:57 AM   #297
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Years of technological advancement... and people STILL feel a proportional trigger is ineffective?

Fast, slow... stock, mod... TC, 1/12... onroad, or dirt... it doesnt matter. You still have to freekin drive it.

This is like some one buying a Viper... and pitching a fit because they got a speeding ticket, or crashed it into a wall. No one made your foot hit the floor board but YOURSELF.

So then society as a collective rallies together to BAN fast cars so no one will EVER get a ticket or have a throttle induced accident...and then were all driving freekin Prius's.

I HATE PRIUS'S... LONG LIVE POWAH!
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:11 AM   #298
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Years of technological advancement... and people STILL feel a proportional trigger is ineffective?

Fast, slow... stock, mod... TC, 1/12... onroad, or dirt... it doesnt matter. You still have to freekin drive it.

This is like some one buying a Viper... and pitching a fit because they got a speeding ticket, or crashed it into a wall. No one made your foot hit the floor board but YOURSELF.

So then society as a collective rallies together to BAN fast cars so no one will EVER get a ticket or have a throttle induced accident...and then were all driving freekin Prius's.

I HATE PRIUS'S... LONG LIVE POWAH!
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:24 AM   #299
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:23 AM   #300
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All these posts of what boils down to "my car is too fast and I still can't win, much less drive it" followed by "we need to regulate fun and progress out of the hobby". Both comments apply to boosted and blinky.

On the boost side. Brushless electronics have come a long way and continue to advance, yet we still want to compare with brushed speeds. Novak has stated that a motor can't go much higher turn than the 25.5s. Boost is fairly easy to comprehend and set up. Get the timing advance in the ESC and the gearing right while keeping the temps in line and your equipment will last a long time. I have yet to change my boosted profile once it is set and gear for the track.

On the blinky side. Brushless electronics have come a long way and continue to advance, yet we still want to compare with brushed speeds. Novak has stated that a motor can't go much higher turn than the 25.5s. Blinky is fairly easy to comprehend and set up. Get the timing advance on the motor and the gearing right while keeping the temps in line and your equipment will last a long time. I have yet to change the timing on the motor once I find the sweet spot and gear for the track.

Either way, I'll race when I can. Arguing over either as better is trolling. I have enough equipment to cover most classes. I'm in favor or figuring out driver progression to the next level over arguing over technology. In truth, 25.5 VTA with no timing is too fast for most pure off the street, new to the hobby first time racers.
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