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Old 06-05-2012, 11:32 PM   #271
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remember though it's club racing for bowling trophies not everybody has the money to put up or shut up like I did at the 2009 indoor champs and buy 3 $350 black diamonds that weren't worth anything by snowbirds 2 months later.

when I pushed my track to blinky I got lots of "I'll quit" statements but I had more guys get back in it becasue they didn't have to worry about what speed control was going to be the next best thing. my track had it's best year in onroad because not only could people spend what limited budget their wife lets them spend on something other then the speed control but they worried less that they weren't wearing the equipment out as fast.

The most popular oval class I have is tour spec "blinky" truck 20 to 30 entries this last winter. boosted car all but died.

The only one I still have problems with if my offroad track that still wants to run boosted but then it is a 10.5 class. so it's overkill but still the fastest driver has the best motor/battery and is the best driver at going fast on my track.

do you want to race against 25 F1 teams or know that there is thousands of short track street stocks spec guys to race against across the country. you tell me?
Well, I guess I'm an anomaly because I'd rather race the 25 good F1 teams, than the Springfield, IL circle jerkers club type guys. Guess that stems from my upbringing. Stock in the old days was where you tested yourself against the best in the class looking to move up. Now stock is looked at as the "anyone can win class".

We have the "level playing field" "fair for all" classes. Those are USVTA and USGT. My opinion is that you leave the "SPEC" or "STOCK" classes for the guys who want to prove their mettle and move on. Sorry, I guess I'm just old-school.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:40 PM   #272
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Eventually, we will have non-boosted motors with locked endbells (probably at 35 degrees or so) checked by the guy with the oscilloscope to see if they have been tampered with. It's only a matter of time.
If this were the case, I'd end my pro-boost arguments. Lock down the endbell timing and all the tuning rotors, and the BS stops. This whole "spec" esc but allowing ceramic bearings and different rotors crap is just plain stupid. All we've done is make it less about what you actually know, and more about your willingness to buy and then test more motor crap. At least if we
totally lock down motors, all we have to find is the best possible packs.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:52 PM   #273
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Well, I guess I'm an anomaly because I'd rather race the 25 good F1 teams, than the Springfield, IL circle jerkers club type guys. Guess that stems from my upbringing. Stock in the old days was where you tested yourself against the best in the class looking to move up. Now stock is looked at as the "anyone can win class".

We have the "level playing field" "fair for all" classes. Those are USVTA and USGT. My opinion is that you leave the "SPEC" or "STOCK" classes for the guys who want to prove their mettle and move on. Sorry, I guess I'm just old-school.
stock in the old days was where you races if you didn't have the money to prove yourself in mod. stock has always been a spec class that's why it's called stock not open modified or even super stock. it's stock, can't play with the motors the MSD the carbs. it's stock with rules to limit how fast you go. you want to "prove your mettle" you run MOD like I have at the last 2 big races I went to. the carpet nats and the region 5 race at the gate. just because I got the money and equipment to run mod doesn't mean I should either. leave stock stock and grow some and run mod if you want to spend all your money running with 25 F1 teams or in my case it was 54 stock and 19 mod at the carpet nats. I had a better experience and more fun running stock then mod I'll tell you that. I would rather have a tight battle with 53 people in stock then get lapped 20 times in mod by 18. I also spent less on parts in stock too. Cost controlled rule controlled class stock. you want to run open speed control run mod.
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:19 AM   #274
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stock in the old days was where you races if you didn't have the money to prove yourself in mod. stock has always been a spec class that's why it's called stock not open modified or even super stock. it's stock, can't play with the motors the MSD the carbs. it's stock with rules to limit how fast you go. you want to "prove your mettle" you run MOD like I have at the last 2 big races I went to. the carpet nats and the region 5 race at the gate. just because I got the money and equipment to run mod doesn't mean I should either. leave stock stock and grow some and run mod if you want to spend all your money running with 25 F1 teams or in my case it was 54 stock and 19 mod at the carpet nats. I had a better experience and more fun running stock then mod I'll tell you that. I would rather have a tight battle with 53 people in stock then get lapped 20 times in mod by 18. I also spent less on parts in stock too. Cost controlled rule controlled class stock. you want to run open speed control run mod.
You couldn't be more wrong... I'm sorry. In the old days you couldn't run Mod without a motor sponsor and Battery sponsor. Now according to the Blinky Mantra EVERYONE can get WORLD CLASS gear at their local shop. Mod has become a serious lifestyle choice in this day and age. The cars are TOO FAST for all but the most talented. Stock/Spec is now the realm of the real hobbyist. The guys who wanna learn the ins-and outs of going fast in a tough crowd.

For the casual racer we have USgt and VTA. Weren't those two classes designed for the guys who didn't wanna race the "true" stock classes? These should be the two BIGGEST classes at EVERY club race.

Why must every class be dumbed down to the, "I don't wanna put in the effort to run with the big boys" level? This is why we can no longer compete on the world stage. USGT and VTA classes were tailor made for the "sportsman" racer, so much so that ROAR shuns "hard-core" racer classes at the paved Nats to offer one of them.

Not everyone is A-main National level capable, (myself included), but many aspire to that lofty goal. Should we be removing that challenge from the hobby?

Once again the old school adage comes to mind, "Those that can race On-Road, those that can't race dirt"
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:28 AM   #275
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The spec classes are intended to reduce costs by having fixed regs for the season. IE 17.5T motor. So in theory you only have to buy one set of equipment for the entire year.

Mod allows the latest and greatest technology to be displayed and it may mean new equipment has to be purchased. Remember back in the day when regen braking came about. 30sec plus extra run time ment going to a 8T or 10T motor. Then it was double regen circuits and tripple regen and ofcourse always better batts. The advances in technology were mostly effecting MOD and the spec classes most of the gear was the same all year.

With dynamic timing the main gains happened in the spec classes and people either were slow or had to buy new gear and they complained.

Dynamic timing was a developing technology, but it has now matured. Yes there was a time with the ESC of the month but this is no longer the case. Big changes/improvements are no longer going to be made and if there are changes pretty much every brand of ESC can be updated to the latest and greatest via software (1% of stuff all improvement on the power output that we already have) so no additional $$$ need to be parted with.

Boosted also allows for most of the differences between motors to be tuned out, blinky doesn't allow this and currently there is noticeable difference between them. We are going through the motor of the month. It wont take all that long ie 18-24months just like the ESCs for the motors to mature and become fairly equal.

This is my gripe with blinky, for maximum performance you need to run serious gearing resulting in very hot motors. I have seen plenty of rotors damaged by heat with blinky by people either having the gearing a little wrong or pushing the limits for maximum performance.

The motors run much cooler with dynamic timing, and last much longer. Not to mention no motor of the month situation. Stopping advances in technology will only be bad in the long term. Cheating in blinky mode with custom software will if it hasn't already become a reality.

As for speed that is not relevant to this discussion.

Choose the technology you want to use then select a motor wind that provides suitable speed.

IE Boosted, 21.5, 17.5 and MOD or blinky 17.5, 13,5 and MOD or blinky 17.5, boosted 17.5 and MOD. Or what ever configuration gives a suitable speed.

For club days all clubs should be providing beginner classes, novice, 540 silver cans ect. IMO it makes sense to have a blinky class for the beginner intermediate level and possibly use the same motor wind as a boosted class.

So they can step up to a faster class that is within there skill level ie 17.5 blinky then when ready to go faster simply turn on the dynamic timing and step up a class.
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:36 AM   #276
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stock in the old days was where you races if you didn't have the money to prove yourself in mod. stock has always been a spec class that's why it's called stock not open modified or even super stock. it's stock, can't play with the motors the MSD the carbs. it's stock with rules to limit how fast you go. you want to "prove your mettle" you run MOD like I have at the last 2 big races I went to. the carpet nats and the region 5 race at the gate. just because I got the money and equipment to run mod doesn't mean I should either. leave stock stock and grow some and run mod if you want to spend all your money running with 25 F1 teams or in my case it was 54 stock and 19 mod at the carpet nats. I had a better experience and more fun running stock then mod I'll tell you that. I would rather have a tight battle with 53 people in stock then get lapped 20 times in mod by 18. I also spent less on parts in stock too. Cost controlled rule controlled class stock. you want to run open speed control run mod.
Stock was where you raced and learned the skills to move up to mod
Most stock class racers I've known over the years have far more budget for racing than I care to spend
Don't need a sponsor, special motor, or battery to run mod, it's all overkill anyway for club racing
Pure driving and setup
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You couldn't be more wrong... I'm sorry. In the old days you couldn't run Mod without a motor sponsor and Battery sponsor. Now according to the Blinky Mantra EVERYONE can get WORLD CLASS gear at their local shop. Mod has become a serious lifestyle choice in this day and age. The cars are TOO FAST for all but the most talented. Stock/Spec is now the realm of the real hobbyist. The guys who wanna learn the ins-and outs of going fast in a tough crowd.

For the casual racer we have USgt and VTA. Weren't those two classes designed for the guys who didn't wanna race the "true" stock classes? These should be the two BIGGEST classes at EVERY club race.

Why must every class be dumbed down to the, "I don't wanna put in the effort to run with the big boys" level? USGT and VTA classes were tailor made for the "sportsman" racer, so much so that ROAR shuns "hard-core" racer classes at the paved Nats to offer one of them.

Not everyone is A-main National level capable, (myself included), but many aspire to that lofty goal. Should we be removing that challenge from the hobby?

Once again the old school adage comes to mind, "Those that can race On-Road, those that can't race dirt"
Harsh on the Off-Road dudes !
Respect to those guys, they are some of the best drivers in RC, after all, that's where the $$ is
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Old 06-06-2012, 01:07 AM   #277
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Harsh on the Off-Road dudes !
Respect to those guys, they are some of the best drivers in RC, after all, that's where the $$ is
Joel Johnson, long time On-Road guy. Masami, could go either way, but his 12th scale record speaks for itself. Hohwart was a 1/12th god in the old days, and was one helluva dirt driver. Hara won a TC WC first, then an 8th buggy WC. BK is quoted in Car Action as saying his favorite class is 12th Mod On-Road. He has NUMEROUS off-road wins, 12th scale not so much, I'm just sayin' ( and I LOVE the Dirtinator). (Many an evening/early morning, I spent at the "Champs" talking 12th scale with BK).

My bias comes from racer perception. At dirt tracks I hear guys proudly say, "I'm w/in a lap of Tebo or Maifield. Those are 35 second laps!! In on-road on most big race layouts, 35 sec. is 3 or more laps. So w/in a lap of Rheinhard or Cyrul tends to mean a bit more to me.......

Hell, I watched Tom Firsching(hardcore 12th scale guy) beat Billy Fischer(Factory Off-Road Driver) in a 45 min 1/8th Buggy main last year at a Pro-Series race.

No disrespect intended among the top guys of either discipline, but the average on-road guys are always better than the average buggy guys, at least from what I've seen.
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:24 AM   #278
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Running modified on a small track with average (at best) traction really isn't that fun. And how many racers in this country can say they've got better conditions to practice in than that?

Have you guys tried mod recently?
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:53 AM   #279
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Mod 1/12 on anything other than great traction is terrible, mod touring car on the other hand.... whenever I want to have a good time, I bolt my 4.5 turn mod into my rubber tire touring car and give it a few rips around the super-dusty carpet track to practice my Tokyo Drift skills, it makes me smile even though my lap times are quite poor.

This is quite strange for me though, I am a good 1/12 racer, but this hasn't made me any faster at offroad, if anything it's made me slower because my smooth on-the-power-roll-through-the-corners driving style doesn't translate well to the point-to-point sprint racing of offroad, ah well, maybe I'm the exception, or maybe I'm just no good at dirt burners.
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:59 PM   #280
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Point of contention, 2K9 Halloween Classic, I had a "mediocre" motor, and decent battery, yet I managed to defeat you resoundingly in the A-main.

My motor dyno'd poorly according to the Fantom Dyno we used, yet with appropriate esc settings my package could run a better 8 min. average than yours. I realize that some of that is down to driver in a given 8 min. session. But my hot lap was within 1 hundreth of the fastest car in the building that weekend.

Knowledge=power, and in this instance Horsepower. Sorry, just the facts....
I know some people hate when facts actually enter the argument. Of course this is 1s 12th based, so I can already hear the TC guys cry foul.......
2k9 Classic. Loved that race. Now can add 2k11 classic to that too.
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Old 06-06-2012, 01:35 PM   #281
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Running modified on a small track with average (at best) traction really isn't that fun. And how many racers in this country can say they've got better conditions to practice in than that?

Have you guys tried mod recently?
12th Mod at TQRC is a regular class
During the summer months we have less than average grip, take some power out, and it's all good, tons o fun

http://www.rctech.net/forum/10820279-post2484.html
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Old 06-06-2012, 02:41 PM   #282
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Well, I guess I'm an anomaly because I'd rather race the 25 good F1 teams, than the Springfield, IL circle jerkers club type guys. Guess that stems from my upbringing. Stock in the old days was where you tested yourself against the best in the class looking to move up. Now stock is looked at as the "anyone can win class".

We have the "level playing field" "fair for all" classes. Those are USVTA and USGT. My opinion is that you leave the "SPEC" or "STOCK" classes for the guys who want to prove their mettle and move on. Sorry, I guess I'm just old-school.
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Old 06-06-2012, 03:04 PM   #283
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Preach the truth!!! Prove yourself in stock, then move up! Then lowandbehold you just might have a mod class at your club track
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Old 06-06-2012, 03:18 PM   #284
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Well, I guess I'm an anomaly because I'd rather race the 25 good F1 teams, than the Springfield, IL circle jerkers club type guys.
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:06 PM   #285
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