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Old 02-10-2005, 09:38 PM   #1
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Default Brushless rubber sedan racing

Hello, I'm looking for input from any clubs or tracks that have succesfully run a brushless sedan program. If you have been able to succesfully support a competetive brushless sedan class, why do you think it was/is succesfull? Was is just that all of your local racers wanted to do brushless? Or did you do something special to make it more attractive?

If you, too, have had trouble getting a competetive brushless sedan class working, why do you think that is?

I will hold off on my theories as to why the resistance to brushless. I want to see some fresh honest ideas that maybe I haven't thought of.

In my area, there is very heavy resistance to brushless. It is allowed in our open class, but our open class is basically a bunch of horrible drivers with equipment that doesn't fit into "stock".

I am thinking about trying to make a brushless/19T rubber class. I am hoping that some of the better stock drivers will want to step up in power and we can have a competetive class that allows brushless.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

Thanks
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Old 02-11-2005, 06:52 PM   #2
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In droning voice of Ben Stein, "anyone....anyone...."
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Old 02-13-2005, 07:00 PM   #3
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Kristy Swanson chews her gum...Ben drones on in his own little world..."Bueller?....Bueller?...."
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Old 02-13-2005, 07:18 PM   #4
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Default Re: Brushless rubber sedan racing

Quote:
Originally posted by GordonFreeman
In my area, there is very heavy resistance to brushless. It is allowed in our open class, but our open class is basically a bunch of horrible drivers with equipment that doesn't fit into "stock".

I am thinking about trying to make a brushless/19T rubber class. I am hoping that some of the better stock drivers will want to step up in power and we can have a competetive class that allows brushless.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

Thanks
It sounds like when you say "brushless" you're really saying "Novak". They're not one in the same as many BL motor and ESC combinations are much faster than the Novak 5800 system.

Don't bother creating a separate brushless class unless you intend on forcing everyone to run the same motor--not a good idea IMO. Permit brushless in your normal brushed modified classes, period.

Brushless motors, both sensored and sensorless, will be allowed in the 2006 IFMAR ISTC and 1/12th Worlds...
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Old 02-13-2005, 08:04 PM   #5
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Default Re: Re: Brushless rubber sedan racing

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Originally posted by KMW
Brushless motors, both sensored and sensorless, will be allowed in the 2006 IFMAR ISTC and 1/12th Worlds...
Yes recently heard the good new about BL being passed by IFMAR in both Sensored (ala old teck novak and reedy) and sensoreless (all long standing BL manufacturers) forms. I have not heard the exact wording, but it is good to see things progressing.

I wonder what the manufacturers response will be now, will we see Hacker as the next world champs?
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Old 02-13-2005, 08:07 PM   #6
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I don't care which brushless system is speced. But specing the ROAR brushless would make sense. Just out of curiosity, what in my post would make you think I was talking about the Novak? I didn't say anything about it or the ROAR spec. Are you a mind reader?

That's exactly what I would like to do, use the ROAR spec brushless system. The old brushed motors, as we all know are only as good as they are tuned and how often you can afford to turn them and replace the brushes.

At my club I have used a 4300 stock brushless with the radio throttle end point turned down to about 75% to make it of comparable power to conventional 27T motors. Unfortunately whiners still force me into the "open" class, where I put about 4 laps on the nearest competition because there are not enough people to fill out a proper open class.

Anybody tried anything else to try to make stock brushless comparable to conventional 27T motors? Strap a 2lb drag sled to the car? 2WD? Hopeless?

2006 worlds? Good god, what would you expect the "trickle down" to the club level be 2008? 2010? I thought the FE boat guys I raced with last year were kidding when they told me I should go into hibernation for 5 years, if I expected to race a brushless car. Starting to look like they knew what they were talking about, sad.
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Old 02-13-2005, 08:40 PM   #7
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We have run the novak BL alongside standard brushed stock motors before, with the bl in the stock setting obviously. They just seemed to have a different power band, they werent any quicker around the track.
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Old 02-13-2005, 08:58 PM   #8
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Not only have we done that, but also I've turned the throttle endpoint down to 75% on the radio? Still complaints.

As demonstrated at the Novak race, even the 5800 brushless is slower than everything but a 27T stock motor. Why would anybody care if the 4300 stock brushless, turned down to 75%, is run in a stock class? Small appendages?
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Old 02-13-2005, 09:35 PM   #9
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Maybe cause you are trying to enter a very controlled class with a non controlled product. Stock has very tight restrictions on motor used, if oyu want to vary from those restrictions you will just need to choose another class, not much you can do about it. Unless of course you just want to run local clubbie events, and then it would be up to the discretion of the race director.
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Old 02-13-2005, 09:57 PM   #10
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Yup, I would agree with that. But what is more important, the letter of the law or the spirit of the law? What if a 4300 brushless turned down to 75% is clearly less powerfull than a 27T brushed motor? Are people so unable so see in shades of grey? Does it require too much brain power to be reasonable?

I don't expect to run at a National or even regional event with an "out-of-spec" system. Even Scotty was nice enough the let me run my brushless against convention brushed systems. Sometimes my club seems to be "elitist" in some aspects and "anything goes" in other aspects. I do expect to be able to run at club level with a system that is clearly less powerful than the spec.

Has anybody successfully mixed these two technologies, other than the brainless open class?
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Old 02-13-2005, 09:59 PM   #11
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Here they are allowed in the 19T Expert class.(Novak 5800), it is on the table about allowing the 4300 in the expert stock class only.
Previously owning an indoor on road facility, and also holding races in a nice parking lot track, and having one car set up BL Novak 5800 and the another car set up conventional, I may have some interesting opinions.
The long standing sensorless manufacturers belong in the mod class no doubt. The new LRP/Reedy set up? Dont know yet.
It is just plain funny sometimes to hear the debates. Brushless is here to stay, it will be accepted in time. The Novak 5800 and I have had a good relationship, but in open modified TC it dont stand a chance. In a TC, it is comparable to a good 19T on small to medium tracks. The 5800 in ANY profile is NOT fair in stock. It just has too much acceleration, even when in the limited modes. The track we are now racing is small and tight. My lap times are the same with a 19T or my Novak 5800 in unlimited profile. Honestly? the 19T is easier to drive! I have raced the Novak Race the last two years in the Brushless class and since we were on foams thes year it is a good comparison. It is about like a 19T. On a big track my experiance is that it is a little faster on top end but not by much.
A lot of racers may not agree, but the 4300 holds little to no advantage over a real good 27T, but that is the problem, A REAL GOOD 27T ROAR MOTOR, in expert level classes everyone is going to have fast motors and the advantage is negated vs. sportsman classes where the racers are just learning how to tune motors and how to keep their motors fast.
Bottomline, every track is just going to go through these growing pains as our hobbies technologies grow and change.
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Old 02-15-2005, 01:28 AM   #12
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Thanks Randy, that gives me some hope!
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Old 02-15-2005, 07:05 AM   #13
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I drove a XXX-4 G+ last week w/ the novak mod brushless. It felt slower than my Orion 12x1 V2. The track was long with several slow technical sections.
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Old 02-15-2005, 11:48 AM   #14
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The biggest reason why brushless combos are put in an "open" class is because race directors can't tech the setting on the ecs/motor

If you're running stock - how can a race director quickly look at a car and say "oopps, bobby here is running a 19T arm instead of the 27T arm"?? He cannot..you're theory that just because you dial out your throttle end-point is not valid - becuase how can you prove that's your setting while you ran?? you cannot - yea, you can argue with my until you are blue in the face...but the bottom line, for a race director YOU CANNOT TECH a BL COMBO when running is a "spec'ed" class, like stock touring...

That's the biggest reason why brushless is taking so long to catch on - and even after the IFMAR worlds, still will be a while to catch on...

its not a thing about performance compared to another - its "how do I tech the class"...My local track did a performance test on off-road...a BL didn't do any better in the hands of the same driver - BUT the class he rac against was a MOD buggy class
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Old 02-15-2005, 12:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by k_bojar
The biggest reason why brushless combos are put in an "open" class is because race directors can't tech the setting on the ecs/motor

If you're running stock - how can a race director quickly look at a car and say "oopps, bobby here is running a 19T arm instead of the 27T arm"?? He cannot..you're theory that just because you dial out your throttle end-point is not valid - becuase how can you prove that's your setting while you ran?? you cannot - yea, you can argue with my until you are blue in the face...but the bottom line, for a race director YOU CANNOT TECH a BL COMBO when running is a "spec'ed" class, like stock touring...

That's the biggest reason why brushless is taking so long to catch on - and even after the IFMAR worlds, still will be a while to catch on...

its not a thing about performance compared to another - its "how do I tech the class"...My local track did a performance test on off-road...a BL didn't do any better in the hands of the same driver - BUT the class he rac against was a MOD buggy class
The main benefit of brushless:

Near ZERO maintenance. Sooner or later folks are gonna get sick of $30.00 brushes, $150/300 comm lathes, etc.

Give it time and IFMAR / ROAR will have the specs finalized on brushless design, allowances, etc.

Brushless will be the dominant form in 2.5 / 3 years.

Unless motor companies get smart and start designing 5-pole brushed motors. As they would last much longer than our ancient 3-pole designs nowadays.
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