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Old 05-10-2012, 05:32 AM   #121
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I guess you didn't read much of my post.
Hmmmm yeah I did read it. Something about the three second rule being in effect so if you don't yield in a timley manor LOOK OUT???? Sounds like it is ok to intentionally hit someone if I have to "look out". Maybe the wording doesn't come across very well and your intended meaning wasn't obvious. I took it similar to someone saying "you better watch your back or else"
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Old 05-10-2012, 06:45 AM   #122
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I have listened to a lot of these posts and I see the point about yielding. ok whatever but ruining the fun of a good race? What about the guy who just got punted and someone else caused $50 worth of damage to his car? Tough s***? so a slower drivers race day isn't as important as a faster drivers? Its acceptable for a fast car to wreck a slow car because he wants to?
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Hmmmm yeah I did read it. Something about the three second rule being in effect so if you don't yield in a timley manor LOOK OUT???? Sounds like it is ok to intentionally hit someone if I have to "look out". Maybe the wording doesn't come across very well and your intended meaning wasn't obvious. I took it similar to someone saying "you better watch your back or else"
You seem to be implying that faster drivers coming up to lap shouldn't interfere with the race of the slower car, with no consideration of whether the faster guys are actually racing against each other as well. The last thing I would want is to come up to a back marker with the second place car right behind me, only to then lose my place because I'm trying to get past a back marker that won't move out of the way and let both cars pass and continue their race.

You also seem to be saying that if the lapped cars won't move over then the faster drivers are going to shove the slower car hard enough to wreck it, after all to cause $50 of damage is quite a hard accident and neither car is going to come out unscathed. Seriously failed logic there, if you are leading the race the last thing you are going to do is throw away that lead by hitting someone hard enough to cause them to wreck their car. The people fast enough to lap other cars have enough skill to not just pile into the lapped car in the vain hope they manage to avoid going off themselves as well.
I race in various classes, some small enough to only have one heat with a wide variety of abilities, sometimes you end up with drivers who seem to be putting all their concentration into just getting round the track, with no consideration for the faster cars. When lapping if they don't move out of the way there is one of three types of accidents. The smallest accidents are caused by me, braking just a little bit later at a corner, just enough to nudge them wide so I can get past. The lapped cars either run wide or spin out, and I lose very little if any lap time. No damage is usually caused to either car.

Most accidents are caused by the lapped cars leaving the inside line wide open and turning in on you as you are passing them, or you get past and they pile into you when you brake for the next corner. This usually leads to a lot more damage, quite often wrecking the leaders car more often than the lapped car. The biggest accidents though are reserved for the straight, where instead of holding their line or running wide and backing off the throttle a little, they sweep right into you as you are passing them which quite often ends up with both cars dead.

Given those options if the lapped car doesn't more over then by your definition the car in front of me should "look out", because after a lap behind them they will get a small nudge at the next hairpin, losing a couple of seconds at most. Only an idiot is going to punt someone hard enough off the track to damage their car.

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Old 05-10-2012, 06:51 AM   #123
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I took it similar to someone saying "you better watch your back or else"
It is funny you are so hung up on how a person could bump another car out of the way but you seem completely oblivious when it comes to impeding the fast guys from getting around the track, which is the primary reason someone would get bumped. Don't want to get bumped? Either give a few inches or learn to drive faster so you can stay on the lead lap.
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Old 05-10-2012, 06:53 AM   #124
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You are wasting your breath. They can't seem to comprehend this and think they are entitled to race the leader as he passes them multiple times in the same race. That way it is fun for everybody, right?
Don't necessarily agree here. there has been a lot of good opinions posted on both sides. I understand everyone's point about moving over and I also understand the points about holding your line so your actions are predictable. I have been hit by a lapped car trying to move over at the same time I was going off of the line to pass. Oh well. not enough driver communication that time.

Communication on the drivers stand is the most important factor here. That way no one gets wrecked.

I ran first or second all night last night and had plenty of lapped cars yield and I also had a lot of fun with lapped cars holding their line so I had to be patient and plan the pass. Either way was fine with me. No one got mad and no one got punted due to a unwritten 3 second 3 turn if you don't move I'm going to hit you rule. The racing was clean and a lot of fun. I was running no more than 7 or 8 car lengths away from another car and we swapped first and second a few times until my rear slid out and hit the wall breaking a rear suspension arm. Funny thing is that it happened when I had a clear track with no traffic. Oh well. It was probably time for a new arm anyway. Point is that we both dealt with the same traffic under the same conditions but we maintained the same distances from each other regardless of how the lapped cars were driving. I think the biggest problem is when lapped traffic will act different by letting one car go and holding up another. At least be consistent in your driving if you are pulling aside or running the line. Be predictable and treat all of the cars the same way.
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:06 AM   #125
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It is funny you are so hung up on how a person could bump another car out of the way but you seem completely oblivious when it comes to impeding the fast guys from getting around the track, which is the primary reason someone would get bumped. Don't want to get bumped? Either give a few inches or learn to drive faster so you can stay on the lead lap.
Intentional contact in unacceptable in any circumstance. Yes if I feel that I am truly in the way and causing problems I will move over. And I will let you know what turn it is going to happen in. Still doesn't give you the right to intentionally hit another car.

I am and have been talking about intentional contact which is completely different from incidental contact. Intentional contact has no place on a race track of any size. Incidental contact falls under the stuff happens category.

By the way I am usually on the lead lap in first or second but I'm still trying to get faster every time I run. Beat my best lap by 0.25 last night.

don't get the impression that I block and fight in every turn. That is not racing. I know how and when to yield and when to stay tight. I spent months practicing passing and patience just so I could run as clean as possible. I focused on how to negotiate traffic regardless of how they are driving. It is not easy to work the throttle and brakes to tail another car until a pass is clear. I guess that's why some guys will intentionally hit another car. Its easier to pass someone after you put them in the wall. but that's not racing either.
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:44 AM   #126
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You seem to be implying that faster drivers coming up to lap shouldn't interfere with the race of the slower car, with no consideration of whether the faster guys are actually racing against each other as well. The last thing I would want is to come up to a back marker with the second place car right behind me, only to then lose my place because I'm trying to get past a back marker that won't move out of the way and let both cars pass and continue their race.

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Why would you lose the position? Unless the second place car has more skill negotiating lapped traffic than you do. Sure a slower car should be predictable in their actions. Doesn't really matter if they let you by or hold the line so you can go around but be predictable.

You also seem to be saying that if the lapped cars won't move over then the faster drivers are going to shove the slower car hard enough to wreck it, after all to cause $50 of damage is quite a hard accident and neither car is going to come out unscathed. Seriously failed logic there, if you are leading the race the last thing you are going to do is throw away that lead by hitting someone hard enough to cause them to wreck their car. The people fast enough to lap other cars have enough skill to not just pile into the lapped car in the vain hope they manage to avoid going off themselves as well.

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If their skill level is that high then they should be able to pass cleanly without making contact. Assuming the slower car is predictable in his actions.

I race in various classes, some small enough to only have one heat with a wide variety of abilities, sometimes you end up with drivers who seem to be putting all their concentration into just getting round the track, with no consideration for the faster cars. When lapping if they don't move out of the way there is one of three types of accidents. The smallest accidents are caused by me, braking just a little bit later at a corner, just enough to nudge them wide so I can get past. The lapped cars either run wide or spin out, and I lose very little if any lap time. No damage is usually caused to either car.

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I'm going to assume that f1 is not one of those classes. Open wheels wouldn't respond well to the look out bump.

exactly my point. YOU lose no time but your victim has now lost a couple of seconds because you punted them in the turn. No damage is USUALLY caused???? So its ok to break someone elses stuff from an intentional "bump" as long is it doesn't happen a lot. In this case you are now responsible for them not finishing the race.

Most accidents are caused by the lapped cars leaving the inside line wide open and turning in on you as you are passing them, or you get past and they pile into you when you brake for the next corner. This usually leads to a lot more damage, quite often wrecking the leaders car more often than the lapped car. The biggest accidents though are reserved for the straight, where instead of holding their line or running wide and backing off the throttle a little, they sweep right into you as you are passing them which quite often ends up with both cars dead.

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I agree here. it is the responsibility of the slower car to hold a line either wide or tight. Be predictable and do one or the other. Don't use the whole track. That's blocking and I am severely opposed to blocking.

Given those options if the lapped car doesn't more over then by your definition the car in front of me should "look out", because after a lap behind them they will get a small nudge at the next hairpin, losing a couple of seconds at most.

replied to your statements up in the quote text. Hope you don't mind. Posting from a phone so highlighting options are limited.

Again so its ok for you to hit another car and make him lose a couple of seconds as long as YOU don't lose any time. A very selfish way of racing. Especially since you are complaining about the slower car making you lose time by not GIVING you position. So you will make him lose time by TAKING from him and that's ok? If you are good enough to apply the slightest of taps then you should be able to make a clean pass. Keep employing the look out philosophy and sooner or later you will get the reputation as a dirty racer who has no regard for the other cars on the track. A do anything to win attitude. This may not be the case but it will be the perception people have of your tactics. Worst case someone will employ the look out philosophy on you and it probably won't be a gentle bump and I bet you lose a lot more than a couple of seconds.
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Last edited by 6376vette; 05-10-2012 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:34 AM   #127
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Why does everything have to be so extreme?

Why does it have it to be no-contact at all or someone is in the boards with a broken car?

There is a big difference between flat-out hitting someone from behind to push them out of the way and ducking to the inside of them and to push them a little wide with the side of your car. Saying that you will "take the spot" from someone doesn't necessarily imply that you are going to hack them. You can move someone out of the way without ruining anyone's race.

It has been mentioned a number of times over the past 3-4 pages, ever since Rick and CypressMidwest brought up the 3 corner rule. After the 3rd corner, it doesn't mean that the faster car is going to "take the other guy out".... just that he may try a riskier move.. a move that has a chance of a negative outcome. Not an intentional hack. When someone is fighting you for position, it is often fairly easy to get along side them going in to one corner, but that may put you in a poor spot for the next turn. Giving the lapper a nudge with the side of your car isn't "dirty racing"...

Also... I think there may be a disconnect between the guys who also race gas on-road, asphalt on-road, and carpet. With gas cars, the track is long enough and wide enough to get a whole lot of passing done. And there is usually a fairly large disparity in lap times between the guys at the top of the main and the guys at the bottom... ~1-2 seconds is not uncommon. ie: there is a large enough disparity in speed that the leaders can simply pass the backmarkers at will, and there is absolutely nothing the lappers can do about it even if they wanted to. The laps, however, are long enough that the leaders may only be lapping the backmarkers once over a typical 5 min heat.

However, on some of the smaller asphalt and carpet tracks, lap times between the top and bottom can be on the order of a half second at most. And the lanes are narrow enough(especially when racing sedan on a small US style club carpet track) that the backmarker can effectively "block" by just driving a tight line and holding it. It is just the nature of the beast with carpet racing. In situations where there are some slower cars on the track, the backmarkers can be lapped numerous times. The last carpet race I participated in was 2 weeks ago... In 17.5 12th, the TQ was a fast 44 lap run. Last place had a slow 39 lap run. If that person made the leader work for every pass, it would be a very long race for the leader (it just so happens that the fellow with the 39 laps is one of the most courteous and aware racers I have ever met and does his damndest to give the leaders space).... Different tracks(carpet vs asphalt, size, etc) require different styles of driving by nature.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:37 AM   #128
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Intentional contact in unacceptable in any circumstance. Yes if I feel that I am truly in the way and causing problems I will move over. And I will let you know what turn it is going to happen in. Still doesn't give you the right to intentionally hit another car.

I am and have been talking about intentional contact which is completely different from incidental contact. Intentional contact has no place on a race track of any size. Incidental contact falls under the stuff happens category.

By the way I am usually on the lead lap in first or second but I'm still trying to get faster every time I run. Beat my best lap by 0.25 last night.

don't get the impression that I block and fight in every turn. That is not racing. I know how and when to yield and when to stay tight. I spent months practicing passing and patience just so I could run as clean as possible. I focused on how to negotiate traffic regardless of how they are driving. It is not easy to work the throttle and brakes to tail another car until a pass is clear. I guess that's why some guys will intentionally hit another car. Its easier to pass someone after you put them in the wall. but that's not racing either.
Wow, getting a lot of traction in this thread.

Interestingly enough, in the three years I've been racing I have yet to see anyone get intentionally peeled by a leader. The tracks I've raced at don't have issues because the track announcers do a good job announcing where the leaders are and directing slower traffic to make way. The "three corner rule" seems more a threat than a practice that takes place with any frequency, at least in my experience. This thread had gotten huge based on something that likely never happens. Sounds like your track is "anything goes" with regard to giving up the line or not. I'd love to see how that leads to good racing when some guys drop off the line, some want to race you etc. Whatever works for you. I prefer to run with at a track with consistant expectations and drivers who are at least somewhat predictable with how they drive. Different strokes.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:57 AM   #129
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Nitro or electric? Length of race? If I'm about to lap second, I will stay right behind him and not challenge for the lap. As long as he is in front of me, I don't have to worry about him getting the lap back. In nitro, where flameouts and other issues are common and races are longer, I would definitely lap him and continue to put as much distance ahead of the pack as I could.
Electric...there was about 45 seconds left on the clock in a 6 minute race. What was bad about the whole deal is going wide in two low speed corners and and the leader not going by...I had 4 seconds on 3rd place at that point....

I get the idea of running my own race. If I get beat to a corner...well concede the spot to a lapping leader and stay out of the way....I try to do it when I can lose as little as possible to the person I'm racing against... I just want to point out that at times bad things can happen no matter what you do
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:36 AM   #130
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9 pages and you guys are still discussing the rule most noobs learn after their first HOUR on a track. Unbelievable.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:51 AM   #131
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Why does everything have to be so extreme?

Why does it have it to be no-contact at all or someone is in the boards with a broken car?

There is a big difference between flat-out hitting someone from behind to push them out of the way and ducking to the inside of them and to push them a little wide with the side of your car. Saying that you will "take the spot" from someone doesn't necessarily imply that you are going to hack them. You can move someone out of the way without ruining anyone's race.

It has been mentioned a number of times over the past 3-4 pages, ever since Rick and CypressMidwest brought up the 3 corner rule. After the 3rd corner, it doesn't mean that the faster car is going to "take the other guy out".... just that he may try a riskier move.. a move that has a chance of a negative outcome. Not an intentional hack. When someone is fighting you for position, it is often fairly easy to get along side them going in to one corner, but that may put you in a poor spot for the next turn. Giving the lapper a nudge with the side of your car isn't "dirty racing"...

Also... I think there may be a disconnect between the guys who also race gas on-road, asphalt on-road, and carpet. With gas cars, the track is long enough and wide enough to get a whole lot of passing done. And there is usually a fairly large disparity in lap times between the guys at the top of the main and the guys at the bottom... ~1-2 seconds is not uncommon. ie: there is a large enough disparity in speed that the leaders can simply pass the backmarkers at will, and there is absolutely nothing the lappers can do about it even if they wanted to. The laps, however, are long enough that the leaders may only be lapping the backmarkers once over a typical 5 min heat.

However, on some of the smaller asphalt and carpet tracks, lap times between the top and bottom can be on the order of a half second at most. And the lanes are narrow enough(especially when racing sedan on a small US style club carpet track) that the backmarker can effectively "block" by just driving a tight line and holding it. It is just the nature of the beast with carpet racing. In situations where there are some slower cars on the track, the backmarkers can be lapped numerous times. The last carpet race I participated in was 2 weeks ago... In 17.5 12th, the TQ was a fast 44 lap run. Last place had a slow 39 lap run. If that person made the leader work for every pass, it would be a very long race for the leader (it just so happens that the fellow with the 39 laps is one of the most courteous and aware racers I have ever met and does his damndest to give the leaders space).... Different tracks(carpet vs asphalt, size, etc) require different styles of driving by nature.
It doesn't matter. I understand your points but INTENTIONAL contact is unacceptable under any conditions no matter how light the contact is or what the intention of the contact was. incidental contact during a pass happens but of is the responsibility of the passer and the one being passed to not do anything stupid. A lot of these posts put all responsibility of a clean pass on the car being passed when truth be told it is the passer who needs to decide the proper time to make the pass and the one being passed to hold the line wide or tight to prevent contact.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:56 AM   #132
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9 pages and you guys are still discussing the rule most noobs learn after their first HOUR on a track. Unbelievable.
Look at this scrub who doesn't use 40 ppp
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:57 AM   #133
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Wow, getting a lot of traction in this thread.

Interestingly enough, in the three years I've been racing I have yet to see anyone get intentionally peeled by a leader. The tracks I've raced at don't have issues because the track announcers do a good job announcing where the leaders are and directing slower traffic to make way. The "three corner rule" seems more a threat than a practice that takes place with any frequency, at least in my experience. This thread had gotten huge based on something that likely never happens. Sounds like your track is "anything goes" with regard to giving up the line or not. I'd love to see how that leads to good racing when some guys drop off the line, some want to race you etc. Whatever works for you. I prefer to run with at a track with consistant expectations and drivers who are at least somewhat predictable with how they drive. Different strokes.
We actually have some if the fastest and cleanest racing I have ever experienced. We also have less upset drivers and more fun than any other track I have run at. That's why I race there. I guess it comes from the fact that our drivers are patient and will hold their lines regardless of if they are tight or wide. We have plenty of spots being yielded to faster cars. the wide cars know how to stay wide and not crunch the inside and the tight cars stay tight and do not drift and push to the outside. All of our drivers from first to last have fun and are ready to come back next time. Our main focus for 99% of our guys is being clean and no contact. As a result everyone runs faster laps, more laps, and a lower standard deviation. Fast laps are cool but a standard deviation of 0.3 or less over 8 minutes is truly impressive. You can only get that if people know how to hold a line.
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:12 PM   #134
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9 pages and you guys are still discussing the rule most noobs learn after their first HOUR on a track. Unbelievable.
Apparently the learning curve is pret-ty steep for some.
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:45 PM   #135
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Most accidents are caused by the lapped cars leaving the inside line wide open and turning in on you as you are passing them, or you get past and they pile into you when you brake for the next corner. This usually leads to a lot more damage, quite often wrecking the leaders car more often than the lapped car. The biggest accidents though are reserved for the straight, where instead of holding their line or running wide and backing off the throttle a little, they sweep right into you as you are passing them which quite often ends up with both cars dead.
This is what I saw during our Mod A-main, "If drivers hold their line" wide in the corner stay wide, if inside in the corner stay inside, inside on the straight stay inside. Holding your line doesn't always mean your in the racing groove "it means hold your line".

Now if a new racer see the track pro's hitting people what message are you sending? this is how we race! which they learn the first time they put their car on the track.

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