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Old 04-25-2012, 03:19 PM   #16
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I think some esc's (e.g. Prospec) already have traction control. It senses spikes in rpm and then regulates the power. And I believe it is legal for racing.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:08 PM   #17
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I would have to say that the Prospec program (if it has it) is an active traction aid and is NOT legal, but thats just my interpretation. So far, I don't think anybody has won a nationals with that ESC so its a non-issue.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:10 PM   #18
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With extra special tire sauce.
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Great topic by the way!
Thanks, I thought it was worth a few words.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:38 PM   #19
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Traction control could be nearly free, with today's sensored brushless systems constantly measuring the speed of your motor, a software upgrade could introduce a rudimentary traction control system based on how fast or slow your spooling up.
High end ESCs already have a rudimentary traction control built in already. You can already control traction by adjusting the current limiters and changing throttle profiles to prevent slip, although traction isn't too much of a problem for on road anyway.

20 years ago LRP came up with a proper traction control, it included front and rear wheel sensors to detect when the wheels spun under acceleration to moderate power to the motor. It was banned due to the simple reason that if it was allowed every driver would end up buying one, so there would be no advantage.

Traction control systems wouldn't be cheap, it's not like they could be used in something else like the car drift gyros which are just helicopter gyros. You would also be looking at something which monitors a sensor on each wheel at a high enough frequency to back off the motor fast enough to do it before the car spins out. You can't create a traction control system using a gyro as by the time the gyro senses the car sliding it's already too late.

Learning to modulate the throttle and not just jamming it full on coming out of a corner is a driver skill that's not difficult to learn. If we managed to race 30 years ago with 1/12th scales with no suspension and off road buggies with rock hard tyres compared to what they race on now, there's not much need for traction control systems these days.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:51 PM   #20
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This is an interesting idea, (to keep the backmarkers on the same lap or at least minimize the number of laps down)

As far as active controls having no place in motorsports, someone needs to adjust their view, MotoGP has had active traction antiskid controls for a few seasons now.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:37 PM   #21
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As far as active controls having no place in motorsports, someone needs to adjust their view, MotoGP has had active traction antiskid controls for a few seasons now.
And I'm sure a few riders owe that system their lives.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:40 PM   #22
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I would have to say that the Prospec program (if it has it) is an active traction aid and is NOT legal, but thats just my interpretation. So far, I don't think anybody has won a nationals with that ESC so its a non-issue.
Prospec was just an example. Maybe the ESCs that have won nationals and worlds have built in traction control already? Hard to tech software code.

Just my personal opinion, radio exponentials, traction compounds, chassis tweaking/setup, new tires per run, etc all seek to maximize traction. If an esc software can help, what is the difference?

I remember decades ago it was banned as too complex (sensors in wheels) and added cost. But an ESC software update is usually free and no added mechanical parts to the car (not complex).

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Old 04-25-2012, 07:10 PM   #23
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Prospec was just an example. Maybe the ESCs that have won nationals and worlds have built in traction control already? Hard to tech software code.

Just my personal opinion, radio exponentials, traction compounds, chassis tweaking/setup, new tires per run, etc all seek to maximize traction. If an esc software can help, what is the difference?

I remember decades ago it was banned as too complex (sensors in wheels) and added cost. But an ESC software update is usually free and no added mechanical parts to the car (not complex).

Systems like you are suggesting are NOT true traction control from a high performance perspective. That's probably why there has been no real controversy about them. To have a truly effective traction control system, you MUST have some means of sensing vehicle speed. This is usually done with a wheel speed sensor on a front wheel for RWD vehicles. Why is that, you might ask?

Contrary to what you might think, high performance traction control (as opposed to safety related tc found in most passenger cars) do NOT eliminate wheel spin. Maximum acceleration (at least with real car rubber tires, foam or rc rubber may be different) is obtained with 6-8% wheel spin. A system like the prospec would not be able to detect that. It would only detect a massive amount of wheel spin, at a time too late to matter, and then over react to the problem. What you have is a TC like my Mercedes company van has, hit a small bump under hard acceleration and the tc comes down like a hammer and you don't move until it decides to turn off again.

With someway to detect vehicle speed, the esc could then compare that to the speed of the motor and assuming you have input correct gearing and tire size figures, it could then modulate the power to maintain a 6-8% wheel spin for maximum acceleration. Of course, such a system is currently prohibited by all sanctioning bodies I know of.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:21 PM   #24
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Hi Wingracer,

Is a system (e.g. ESC) that automatically regulates throttle (over and above the finger position) acceptable to the sanctioning bodies? Systems like the Prospec esc, to my understanding, automatically reduce the throttle (despite your finger not reducing throttle).

Thanks in advance.
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:39 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by rccartips View Post
Hi Wingracer,

Is a system (e.g. ESC) that automatically regulates throttle (over and above the finger position) acceptable to the sanctioning bodies? Systems like the Prospec esc, to my understanding, automatically reduce the throttle (despite your finger not reducing throttle).

Thanks in advance.
I have no idea. My personal opinion is that anything that actually senses vehicle speed should be illegal, anything that doesn't I don't care about so they can allow it if they wish.
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:12 PM   #26
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:13 PM   #27
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A gyro is actually a bit wrong i think as it usually just senses chances in direction.

Usually you measure wheelspeed on the front wheels on a rwd to detect wheelspin but you can do it without.

You need a accelerometer or something to measure forward acceleration and then compare it to only the rear wheel speed.

It its a option on the newer superbikes, ducati, Kawasaki etc.

They are stupidly sofisticated too.

This system does not stop you from doing wheelies.

But the optimum and easiest to make for a car is wheel sensors all around.

Its no problem to make the TC allow a surtain amount of slip.
http://www.sportrider.com/features/1...l/viewall.html

Personally i would not mind fidling a bit with a gyro on the steering to take out/help with small slides.
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:28 PM   #28
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True traction control and gyro systems to regulate wheel angle will never take off. They are complex and have to be programmed from track to track. Since we had programmable timing on BL motors, everyone has tried to get rid of it. If the vast majority of drivers can't figure out something simple like timing-on-the-fly, they have no chance with true traction control systems.

The cost will exclude most racers, and then there will be all the new cars to take the sensors in the right places and then all the software programs needed to get the best from them.

Whether they remain illegal forever (which I hope they do) or not, they will come and almost immediately go. Either they go because people realise what a problem they are to set up, or they go because people will vote with their feet due to cost and complexity. For anyone who values the sport and keeping new drivers in it, this is a non-starter.
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:13 PM   #29
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This is getting away from the electronics. But I have wondered. Why haven't two speed transmissions been allowed in more classes?
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:13 PM   #30
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You would have to have individual brakes and wheel sensors for a TC system to work to the greatest potential. Or just simply have wheel motors. All high performance TC systems use both brake and Throttle modulation to mitigate wheel spin.
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