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Old 04-16-2012, 10:18 PM   #106
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I believe that a hand out ESC and motor class would be a great addition to any big race. I also like the spec ESC and motor idea in general.

The one thing I see a lot of on "big race" threads are people complaining about getting smoked by factory pilots. A spec class could fix this by limiting entries to non-sponsored or supported drivers. In short a "sportsman" class.

Currently with the classes defined as "17.5 Blinky", "13.5 Open" and "Mod", a manufacturer would be dumb to not try to win every class with their team drivers. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday. I think they should do all they can to win these classes.

I'd like to see a class structure of "Sportsman or Amateur (Spec ESC & Motor) ", "13.5 Open" and "Mod". That way unsponsored drivers can race other unsponsored drivers and anybody and everybody can race 13.5 open or mod.

Hopefully that can fix some of the cheating and cherrypicking complaints.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:28 PM   #107
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EA-

Personally, I love the idea of handout motor and Speedo. I think for once we can really see how good people are and remove the potential advantage that can be gained if you know the right person or know the tricks to get around a lot of the current rules. I think the Euro's have it right and think that the US race scene could learn a thing or two about what makes some of these classes more successful. Sometimes even the perception of equipment that does not meet the standard specs is enough to create doubt in one's ability to compete. It would be nice to compete with my peers based on my ability to setup my car and drive it rather then electronic configuration or advantage.

Not sure I am personally ready to drop the middle class between stock and mod. I personally like the idea of having a middle class where the best stock drivers and the worst mod drivers meet to compete. Going from 17.5 blinky to boosted mod is a huge leap...and I personally think people get better in progression rather then with a leap into the deep end. If I wanted to swim the English channel you had better practiced in something larger then a hot tub...just sayin'
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:29 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by robk View Post
So beyond the 4 things you just mentioned, we should have a 5th one that is even more complex than the first 4? Makes a guy want to run offroad...oh wait they did

Seriously, turnouts are way better in my neck of the woods with blinky classes. Locked out motors can't hurt.
Most didn't bother with the other 4 when the ESC could do all the work. I certainly didn't. Doesn't matter anymore, the decision was made to move backwards technologically in the interest of gaining more drivers. Give those that returned some time, and they'll find another reason to quit again.

Like I've said a thousand times before, I prefer boosted because it was cheaper for me to tune the esc, than it was to buy motors and rotors. I could really care less at this point. I'm not going to quit because the rules changed. I'll just pony up the cash for the new stuff.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:30 PM   #109
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BTW, just having fun there, see you guys at Reedy.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:31 PM   #110
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Thanks for the thread EA, I agree with Art and Racin J.
I probably should have quoted them before they edit their posts ! LOL
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:26 AM   #111
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I think it's working well in the Euro series from what I have read (and seeing the numbers it's been getting), even though I do think there is a place for open ESC and all the tuning within them, when it comes to limiting a class (or having a controlled class), handout motors start looking very good.

It would be nice to think 'any' blinky ESC would be ok in said class, but I'm not sure how that is working out, I have a 'Justock' HW ESC, in theory it can only run no timing, but they have a firmware update that is slower than the original (I tested it twice now, each time I try the new firmware, it's slower), this generally makes me sort of scratch my head and wonder about what 'can' be changed in said firmware that can make it faster or slower, and still be zero or whatever.

Having said that, it's a $50-$60 ESC, which I have been running in a zero 10.5T class, and in terms of what it does, it's excellent, motors are the wild factor, if your stuck with a zero ESC, some type of locked or handout motors seems a great idea to me.


I especially like the idea of a handout or locked class in the 13.5-10.5 range, as surely it's a speed to power range that can work most anywhere?, without being overly hard to drive (perhaps part of why it's working so well in the Euro).

Given there is just so much, well variation in everything these days, will the hobby ever be happy though unless we cater to everyone?, and by that I mean will we be able to make the majority happy, unless we have a open timing limited turn class, controlled/locked/handout limited turn class, then a true open everything class? (though I wonder about true open these days unless it really is a 'major' event).


Actually I was just over looking at the ETS rules section on RedRC, another thing where I think they have the rest of the world beat...
"ETS allows any hard case LiPo battery packs."
Sorry if your a fan of battery lists and approvals, but I think it's one of the dumbest things in electric.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:29 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LloydLoar View Post
Can you be more specific?
We went with the speed passion esc/17.5 motor combo...the fast guys were still miles ahead of everyone else so the drivers that were frustrated about the difference were still frustrated. Of the drivers that didn't participate in the class most already had ESCs that they liked and didn't want to buy an ESC they didn't want to run in the class. We went to a normal 17.5 blinky class but kept our realistic body and wheels rule and times pretty much remained unchanged. We got a few more drivers after that but it is impossible to say if they would have still joined the class if we still had the spec ESC rule in place.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:17 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
Most didn't bother with the other 4 when the ESC could do all the work. I certainly didn't. Doesn't matter anymore, the decision was made to move backwards technologically in the interest of gaining more drivers. Give those that returned some time, and they'll find another reason to quit again.

Like I've said a thousand times before, I prefer boosted because it was cheaper for me to tune the esc, than it was to buy motors and rotors. I could really care less at this point. I'm not going to quit because the rules changed. I'll just pony up the cash for the new stuff.
Just a question that has bothered me for a while- if motors did not matter when boosted was around, why didn't we see certain motor brands ever win races? Why were there "must have" new motors?
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:22 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
Thanks for the post! You are correct that it doesnt matter what you have in your car if the person doesnt know how to drive it or work on it.

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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
How great would it be if you knew that a race coming up was using a 60.00 spec speedo (bring your own if you already have one) and you could sell your current speedo (cause there is still a huge market for speedo's as everyone wont be going to said race anyway) for a good amount, buy a speedo for the race that is equally as fast and pay your entry fee with the extra? Completely hypothetical but possible!

EA
So if what's in the car doesn' matter...and the spec speedo is equally as fast...why bother with a spec?

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IIC 2011 - Stock - was suppose to abide by the ROAR approved ESC's and software versions list. Did that happen? No. Orca speedo's in the amatuer class (non-appoved speedo but they were a sponsor of the race), Tekin 22x in who knows what classes. Just testing for a blinking light. When you have to change your gearing by 3-5 teeth when you change 'Blinky' speedo's, something is wrong. If you attended IIC, then you saw it for yourself.
I did attend the IIC and I did not see it for myself...I hadn't even heard of what was going on until well after the race...and you know why? Because all of that really only affected the top drivers in each class...the A main and not much else. And honestly it probably would have been the same drivers in the A no matter what the rules were.

I have more thoughts on the issue but will get back to them after I've gotten some sleep.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:34 AM   #115
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The rulemakers (unintentionally) got brushless stock wrong. There are too many adjustments on the motors, and in the past too many adjustments on the speedo.

Blinky class has addressed the speedo problem, motors are still going to be an issue.

Spec motor/esc combos is the only real solution.

It's great that you have gone to a meeting with a such a class and thoroughly enjoyed yourself.

Even at my level (club/regional meetings) we have a disproportionate amount of frustration about motors and ESCs when really all we want to do is go about the same speed as the other drivers and enjoy a good race. If more of the big races could take a lead on having a spec powertrain, it would be easier to convince the club racers to do the same.
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:15 AM   #116
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Just a question that has bothered me for a while- if motors did not matter when boosted was around, why didn't we see certain motor brands ever win races? Why were there "must have" new motors?
Duo1's were pretty much the standard. The Novak Ballistics fared pretty well too. Most tuners oem'd the Trinity stuff, so it was more prevalent. Which "must haves" are you referring to? Hell at last year's Indoor Champs D1's were still VERY competitive in boosted classes.

But as I said, the point is moot because "blinky" is the new mandate. The only boosted class left is Mod.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:27 AM   #117
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I'm good at handout motor races. That way I don't spend 3 hours making myself way slower on a chassis dyno! Lets do it! Motor, speedo, or both.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:31 AM   #118
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Duo1's were pretty much the standard. The Novak Ballistics fared pretty well too. Most tuners oem'd the Trinity stuff, so it was more prevalent. Which "must haves" are you referring to? Hell at last year's Indoor Champs D1's were still VERY competitive in boosted classes.

But as I said, the point is moot because "blinky" is the new mandate. The only boosted class left is Mod.
Today blinky racing is a motor, rotor and battery war.
Although boost is dead, I did prefer it as I could take a turd motor and make it just as
competitive.

I think the problem is that blinky 17.5 looks nothing like 27t or 19t. Where is the fixed motor timing. Handout sealed motors is probably the
only solution.
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:19 AM   #119
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First of all, great topic!

It's good of EA to put his thoughts onto the forum and contribute his own personal findings from a big event.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned by anyone is the sponsored drivers who will miss their own equipment by only being allowed to use one type of ESC/Motor if they use different to what the rules dictate, and therefore be in contradiction of their sponsorship contract.

Imagine the scenario:

Racer to team manager "I did really well at (insert) event, but it wasnt with your equipment, sorry".

It doesnt bode too well imo if this format of racing became the standard for a lot of big races....

You would either be excluded from racing there, potentially around people you get on well with etc, or you go there and have a race series/meeting that your sponsors will not be able to use as a good word for their product/s.

At club level, my local club is testing the water with a 4 round no timing touring car class to see what the level of interest is, as 13.5 is probably too much motor for the size of venue we race in and are looking to make the racing closer.

Ok, so it is not a handout/spec motor/esc but the main thing the club is trying to achieve is to make the racing closer.

I do think this format of racing is something that can be a welcome addition to other big events, but it is all down to the organiser making that decision and hoping that people will go with it - and that is the risk.

With any race series, there is a certain amount of overheads financially to making it a success, get the format/rules wrong and it's obviously not good!

if you are dedicated to r/c then I doubt the cost would be an issue to anyone, but if you are on a limited budget, I feel it may put people off to jump in the ring and play and exclude them from a good race series because they have the wrong equipment. But I guess that is common place to a lot of race senarios.

In certain ways, the brushless era to me, has unsettled r/c racing and has seen some racers quit because of the complexity of it all, but not by a big amount.

Back in the days when touring car racing first came to the UK and I looked at a club local to me, it was full of realistic Tamiya shells/cars and GP3300 cells or similar, with 27t brushed motors and SIMPLE esc's.

There felt a sense of unity to touring cars.

I am still lucky enough to race at a club where everyone feels welcome, but this is not always the case when you race somewhere different, where you are at an unfamiliar track with people you don't know and feel like an outsider - it sounds like the ETS has none of that vibe evident.

Well, enough of my rambling, I hope the ETS can share its popularity with r/c racers anywhere with its success, and bring in some new race meetings anywhere outside of the ETS with a similar format!
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:41 AM   #120
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i like the ideal of the locked motor..(that could be the 1st step)..SP-sportsmen v2 & trinity moster lock..even duratrax have a locked motor DTX...i think the lock motor could be the 1st step to making it a even playn field
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