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Old 04-25-2012, 06:44 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by bdbachus View Post
I apologize I was unable to decipher "what his point was." I know what he said "There is absolutely zero throttle control required in on road with anything 13.5 and slower. Its punch it and go. Off the corner your full punch. No need for anything less anywhere I have ever run so it will teach you absolutely zero about throttle control."

Seems like a clear read to me, maybe I'm dumb, lol.

When you enter a corner that doesn't require braking and you "barely lift" on the throttle...that's throttle control right?

I would agree with you if your layout is full of 180s, but from what I understand other corners require potential brake and throttle input, both 0-100%, different corners require different inputs. I'm not going to argue with you though, defend your boy, he's right cause he's your boy! lol

Ok you should go back and read slowly. Your quoting me in the above text not "my boy". Me and him were discussing something that you have clearly missed the point on. So I'm not defending anyone. Just trying to get you to see that you have missed part of the conversation.

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Old 04-25-2012, 06:47 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by rccartips View Post
Original context was to limit top speed via rev limiter. The next question was acceleration disparity among motors and batteries (i.e. when throttle is being pressed, not when held steady entering a corner). And in 4wd tc, weak motors, it is punch the throttle (no real throttle control).
Thanks. Pretty much sums it up! LOL

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Old 04-25-2012, 07:00 PM   #288
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(my comments are directed towards the north american racing scene)

Ugh... the mentality of all these mod guys kill me. Look if there was an interest by many to run modified, you would see many people racing modified. I am a club level driver, that is all. I have no interest in running mod.

I love the idea of a spec esc and motor for a racing series. Why don't the mod guys like that? Because they are sick of racing the same 15 people at every top level event and want new blood.

Well that isn't going to happen. You can break it down all you want the reasons why people don't race mod. The cost of having different wind mod motors and rotors, the huge wear on the car, belts, drive shafts, tires, or having high c rating batteries. It all comes down to the fact that the average driver cannot mentally wheel a modified car around the track.

Majority always wins. Start listening to your average club level driver to grow racing at your track, state, province or country.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:27 PM   #289
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Dirt Oval has been doing something like this now for 4 plus years...

When introduced at the Custom Works US Open Wheel Champs in Dec 2008, $135 got you a 13.5 spec motor and a DODC Spec Lipo, and entry for that class. Now, at the time, boosted speed controls didn't exist, so most everyone was using GTB's and LRP's.

With the rules package for the DODC series, if you run a 13.5 class at a DODC track, you must run that particular motor and lipo combo (Novak 13.5 SS / SMC 3200...both labeled with "DODC Approved" on them).

Two years ago, a 17.5 class was introduced at the 2010 OW race that had a spec combo of the DODC 17.5 motor (Novak 17.5 SS) and a Novak Havok SC for $135 (this included your entry fee also). Lipo was not included, but the DODC lipo was required for this class (that could be purchased for $70)

Neat thing about this was you could take this package to any DODC track (there's a lot of them), and be assured that you'ld have the stuff to run each week. Every year at the large, DODC sanctioned races, that still would be the same stuff to run in those classes as well...makes tech very simple and quick, too.

Dirt Oval is very much alive and well...I can say that the above stipulations have certainly helped it.

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Old 04-26-2012, 05:05 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by kyle133 View Post
(my comments are directed towards the north american racing scene)

Ugh... the mentality of all these mod guys kill me. Look if there was an interest by many to run modified, you would see many people racing modified. I am a club level driver, that is all. I have no interest in running mod.

I love the idea of a spec esc and motor for a racing series. Why don't the mod guys like that? Because they are sick of racing the same 15 people at every top level event and want new blood.

Well that isn't going to happen. You can break it down all you want the reasons why people don't race mod. The cost of having different wind mod motors and rotors, the huge wear on the car, belts, drive shafts, tires, or having high c rating batteries. It all comes down to the fact that the average driver cannot mentally wheel a modified car around the track.

Majority always wins. Start listening to your average club level driver to grow racing at your track, state, province or country.
I would have to disagree... 99% of the problem is the racer. Most people think they need to run a 5.5 motor for Mod but for most of the tracks a boosted 13.5 or even a 17.5 would probably be just as fast on smaller tracks we race on (compared to European football field sized race tracks).

The last year foam tire TC was run at the IIC stock foam TQ was I think 8-10 seconds faster then the Mod rubber TQ. I know this is comparing apples to oranges in a way, but do you think many people though there was more wear and tear on the stock foam car as compared to the Mod rubber car? I agree modified isn't for everybody, but there are other ways of going about running it then slapping a low turn motor in your car and having at it...

The worst thing we can do is listen to what the racers want... Only because everybody wants something different at this point. The best thing to do is to just have one of the big races set this spec class up, and let whatever happens happen.
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Old 04-26-2012, 05:33 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
Mod is the only true spec class IMO, all the drivers are
equal in motor , battery & ESC ......


Bonus !
No one in mod has to come off the drivers stand thinking his team mates are less than honest ....
I do not complletly agree with you. Yes, with running modified you do accept the fact that others can be faster because the materials are unlimited but for sure in the mod no one is equal.


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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
One thing I find funny in this thread lately is how many guys automatically think that as soon as someone beats them they are cheating.
Yes... Ever wondered why people are faster in a stock class with a zero degree ESC? I have seen people jumping out of corners as if they have a some kind of boost program as also some people are a lot faster on the straight while all drivers are running the same final drive ratio.
The blinky LED rule is a nice rule but special firmwares and even with some soldering the blinky LED can be made while still running with timings.
The handout ESC without programming options is the best choice as with the motor to prevent such cheating through other tricks like rotating the sensor plate or bend over or resolder the sensors

Ofcourse still there differences due tolerances but they are small, within some tenths of a seccond.
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:45 AM   #292
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@ roelof,

At what race did you see this and what esc did they run? Please specify.

Are you sure it wasn't cause there corner speed were higher?
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:45 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
I do not complletly agree with you. Yes, with running modified you do accept the fact that others can be faster because the materials are unlimited but for sure in the mod no one is equal.




Yes... Ever wondered why people are faster in a stock class with a zero degree ESC? I have seen people jumping out of corners as if they have a some kind of boost program as also some people are a lot faster on the straight while all drivers are running the same final drive ratio.
The blinky LED rule is a nice rule but special firmwares and even with some soldering the blinky LED can be made while still running with timings.
The handout ESC without programming options is the best choice as with the motor to prevent such cheating through other tricks like rotating the sensor plate or bend over or resolder the sensors

Ofcourse still there differences due tolerances but they are small, within some tenths of a seccond.
IF THEY ARE FASTER THEN THEY ARE CHEATING!! great way to think!!!!
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:47 AM   #294
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Not sure. Any pics of the new place anywhere?
Will see what I can do about that & don't listen to the nay saying naybobs, it is a great track with good tire wear and alot of fun!!!!!
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:12 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by 2wdrive View Post
@ roelof,

At what race did you see this and what esc did they run? Please specify.

Are you sure it wasn't cause there corner speed were higher?
This was on open clubrace with a zero degree (setted) ESC. Which ESC it was I can not tell but my friend running compleetly stock was using the stock Citrix ESC. And I know my friend is using a well oiled drivetrain and a good battery. And no, no speed differences in the corner, only when comming out of it.

It does not matter but do not think the zero degree with blinky LED rule can not be fooled.

The funny thing is that the old brushed setup is becomming more populair again. More and more I do see stock classes with the silver can or Carson cup machine.
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:20 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
This was on open clubrace with a zero degree (setted) ESC. Which ESC it was I can not tell but my friend running compleetly stock was using the stock Citrix ESC. And I know my friend is using a well oiled drivetrain and a good battery. And no, no speed differences in the corner, only when comming out of it.

It does not matter but do not think the zero degree with blinky LED rule can not be fooled.

The funny thing is that the old brushed setup is becomming more populair again. More and more I do see stock classes with the silver can or Carson cup machine.
Just speculating but is there a chance that he was just running a line that allows him to get on the throttle earlier or more aggressively coming out of the corner? Gearing differences maybe? Not sure if your series specs FDR but some will give up a little on the top end for more punch in the infield. The cars look a lot faster but give it back on the straights. Either way it isn't cheating, just a different way of skinning a cat so to speak.
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:08 AM   #297
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Boy you guys can cover a lot of ground in a short amount of time. I need to subscribe to this thread, just to keep up.

That said, I am not a fan on the idea of limiting RPM as a solution, what i think that this shows is a more fundamental issue that goes to the whole heart of standardisation for spec racing and of track design.

A lot of the racing i watch on the interwebs and indeed of some of the pro spec racing, is that it seems that a lot of racing is more or less like driving slot cars. Car handling, tires and traction have improved to such degrees that most corners can be driven flat out or with just a slight off throttle roll in before full power is then applied again mid corner for the drive out.

There is nothing like a loss of traction to level out the playing field. Take the recent F1 race from Malaysia that Ferrari won. Ferrari are obviously struggling with development, straight line speed and a whole lot of other things, but can win a race that is rain effected, why, because the loss of traction in any form of motorsport levels out the playing field.

So i put it to you all, that the most logical solution would be to introduce less traction, either by using a spec tire of a harder compound and banning the use of all traction additives, or changing the wind rates for motors on all tracks, so that a 17.5T track becomes 13.5T motors used. More power means breaking and throttle control become a skill again.

Just some food for thought.
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:15 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
This was on open clubrace with a zero degree (setted) ESC. Which ESC it was I can not tell but my friend running compleetly stock was using the stock Citrix ESC. And I know my friend is using a well oiled drivetrain and a good battery. And no, no speed differences in the corner, only when comming out of it.

It does not matter but do not think the zero degree with blinky LED rule can not be fooled.

The funny thing is that the old brushed setup is becomming more populair again. More and more I do see stock classes with the silver can or Carson cup machine.
if you talk about cheating then silver cans are the cheating class. Seriously, i have seen mini's with a silvercan on the hague 5 years or so ago that were so quick on the straight it looked like tamiya 23t rz motors. That really had nothing to do with corner speed.

One even had build a nihm stickpack battery with specific wires so he could ballance charge the nihms even though it was a stickpack. . That mini was really fast but he was one of the few, the rest was left behind or they had to do the black art with the silvercan as well.

ps:
They didn't have handoutmotors then. They might have now, not sure.
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Old 04-26-2012, 09:24 AM   #299
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:12 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by kyle133 View Post
(my comments are directed towards the north american racing scene)

Ugh... the mentality of all these mod guys kill me. Look if there was an interest by many to run modified, you would see many people racing modified. I am a club level driver, that is all. I have no interest in running mod.

I love the idea of a spec esc and motor for a racing series. Why don't the mod guys like that? Because they are sick of racing the same 15 people at every top level event and want new blood.

Well that isn't going to happen. You can break it down all you want the reasons why people don't race mod. The cost of having different wind mod motors and rotors, the huge wear on the car, belts, drive shafts, tires, or having high c rating batteries. It all comes down to the fact that the average driver cannot mentally wheel a modified car around the track.

Majority always wins. Start listening to your average club level driver to grow racing at your track, state, province or country.
The reason I say run mod is because it eliminates everything people are complaining about. You choose exactly how fast you want to go. Of course I can see how mod isn't popular because it is hard to drive and 99% of the people will choose to run faster motors than they should. I know better and run a higher wind and reduced power settings on my ESC because this is what I can handle.

Another reason they don't run mod is lack of knowledge about it. I have done quite a bit of 17.5 club racing lately plus some 13.5 at the Nats last year. It takes way better (and fresher) batteries and motor to be competitive in stock. Mod may be harder on equipment. But stock requires that the equipment be in better condition and changed more frequently.
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