R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-17-2012, 12:03 PM   #151
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,768
Trader Rating: 1 (67%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
You guys are looking to make all these rules and limits and all you're going to accomplish is head ache and pain.

The real question still isn't being asked. Are you simply trying to slow the cars down? Or are you trying to make everything equal and the same? Mind you the latter will NEVER occur in the real world. There are far too many tolerances between parts to make it work out in the production world.

If you're looking to make things even you should be looking at technology as help, not hindrance.

Racing is about finding a performance advantage ANYTIME there is one to be found. Look at any form of real racing. At any given time every nut, bolt, body panel, tire, wheel, engine,etc are all under scrutiny...

You put enough rules and regulations onto a class or form of racing and you will also eliminate the fun from it also.

This is a problem that should have been presented to ALL of the manufacturers in an open discussion by the sanctioning bodies. If there is/was a problem then it should have been brought up to all mfg's so a mutual "fix" could be found. Again, look to real racing for ideas... If it feels like we've been down this road before, it's because we have


What I think could be accomplished by this is racers will spend less money to be competitive.
New racers will be able to get into racing with a smaller initial investment.......without having to worry about upgrading just to compete.

Both of which will increase the number of racers............something I think everyone will agree needs to be done.
Josh Hohnstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 12:04 PM   #152
Team EAM
 
EAMotorsports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 9,158
Trader Rating: 79 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to EAMotorsports
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I think you are exaggerating the amount of equipment that is needed. How many 17.5 motors does the average stock guy own? 2? 3? More?

Modified is not for everyone. But when you race it you remove a lot of the things that people are complaining about. You choose how fast you want to go, not stuck with how fast your equipment allows you to go.

FYI I have used the exact same 5.0 motor/rotor since the Reedy motor was released a year ago.
I agree that Modified is probably not any more expensive than stock and in fact actually cheaper (Not considering extra parts some guys will break). But the mentality is that sure you can use a much slower motor to make the car drivable for yourself but then there is no chance to be competitive (Racer thinking here) and it makes no sense to even race as you know you cant control a 5.0 turn motor.

Where as in stock at least you can control the car and the perception is that you still have a chance to be competitive because you are the same speed (Again general racer thinking) even though your driving or setup still isnt as good as the top guys but in your mind your running the same stuff and think you have a chance.

Just what I think is a generalization of typical racer thought.

EA
__________________
Contact Us
Team EAM, Our Facebook
Team EAM | Xray | RCAmerica | Hudy | APEX Raceway and Hobbies | RC Mission | Killer Concepts | AVID | Hobbywing.
EAMotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 12:10 PM   #153
Tech Elite
 
Rick Hohwart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,935
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
I agree that Modified is probably not any more expensive than stock and in fact actually cheaper (Not considering extra parts some guys will break). But the mentality is that sure you can use a much slower motor to make the car drivable for yourself but then there is no chance to be competitive (Racer thinking here) and it makes no sense to even race as you know you cant control a 5.0 turn motor.

Where as in stock at least you can control the car and the perception is that you still have a chance to be competitive because you are the same speed (Again general racer thinking) even though your driving or setup still isnt as good as the top guys but in your mind your running the same stuff and think you have a chance.

Just what I think is a generalization of typical racer thought.

EA
I agree.

The ETS has it right. But I am not sure how you will convince stock racers to give away a chance of a performance advantage while accepting a potential disadvantage.
__________________
www.reedypower.com
Rick Hohwart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 12:12 PM   #154
Tech Elite
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 4,042
Trader Rating: 23 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I think you are exaggerating the amount of equipment that is needed. How many 17.5 motors does the average stock guy own? 2? 3? More?

Modified is not for everyone. But when you race it you remove a lot of the things that people are complaining about. You choose how fast you want to go, not stuck with how fast your equipment allows you to go.

FYI I have used the exact same 5.0 motor/rotor since the Reedy motor was released a year ago.
I would bet that the sales reports prior to the big races would tell a different story of sell thru for major events. Again we are talking about major events. The profile of a avid racer that attends 1 or 2 major events a year is much different than the local club racer or even the basher. I am sure you guys know the market. And yes, it is still the same 30 or so faces we see at every major race. Sometimes folks drop off and others come in but for the most part we have the no growth/little loss.

Participation in modified even with the 'four entries makes a class' is pretty much non-existent in the PA/NY/NJ/MD areas. I am sure we could come up with 4 entries at a club race - but racing against yourself is not as attractive as it would be with a larger field. Move the mod class to a major event and it is still low numbers.

I need to buy that 5.0 from you. That way I can run mod when I get back to CA!

The theme if this thread isn't stock vs. mod. It is simply - how to make stock better.
__________________
TEAMORCA.SHOP
MDawson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 12:21 PM   #155
Tech Fanatic
 
oldrcr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 765
Trader Rating: 44 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I agree.

The ETS has it right. But I am not sure how you will convince stock racers to give away a chance of a performance advantage while accepting a potential disadvantage.
Which is why I have been suggesting the RPM/FDR limit. If you can set a limit that will govern overall speed, without taking away, in fact enhancing the important aspects of racing, driving and set-up, why wouldn't that work? It allows all existing equipment to be used. It allows for all manufacturers to still be in the market, they need to compete too, and racing benefits with more close racing. Usually that brings in more new racers that see that fun.

Just wondering if anyone has a good answer as to why this idea wouldn't achieve that? Its even simple.
__________________
Alxd - Seattle RC Racers - AWESOMATIX - Having Fun :-)
oldrcr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 12:25 PM   #156
Team EAM
 
EAMotorsports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 9,158
Trader Rating: 79 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to EAMotorsports
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I agree.

The ETS has it right. But I am not sure how you will convince stock racers to give away a chance of a performance advantage while accepting a potential disadvantage.
I agree 100%....the biggest problem with racers is racers themselves most of the time. Especially when they are being misguided by others.

I am not really trying to convince anyone to be honest. I am just hoping that maybe the Organizations and promoters out there can read this thread and see the feedback from racers and have some feel about which direction to go.

I would not have started this thread if I had not been there, raced it, experienced it all for myself and seen the attitude from the 96 other racers that were in the class. Before going over and participating I thought it was a bad idea but I know the following it has and heard so much good things about it I had to experience it for myself.

And for those wondering I paid every penny of this trip out of my pocket. No sponsorship help or anything like that. So there is no type of influence in my thoughts in this thread at all other than what I learned and experienced while there!

EA
__________________
Contact Us
Team EAM, Our Facebook
Team EAM | Xray | RCAmerica | Hudy | APEX Raceway and Hobbies | RC Mission | Killer Concepts | AVID | Hobbywing.
EAMotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 12:25 PM   #157
Team Tekin
 
Randy_Pike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Norcal
Posts: 9,702
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to Randy_Pike
Default

In my humble opinion this "class" needs a simpler chassis. One more affordable than it is currently.

I agree that the racers should be dictating what classes are ran, however if rules and specs are to change the manufacturers should be involved to make those specs are reasonable and can be met.

An external device could be made as a "restrictor plate" type device. You could set total rpm and even how fast the motor was allowed to rev if you chose to get into that far. But I've never been a fan of adding another component that could be then potentially be blamed or though to be tampered with to taint a win.

I agree with Rick in that mod racing does eliminate the majority of these "issues."
__________________
"Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle." Abraham Lincoln

Tekin,Protek,A-Main Hobbies,JConcepts,Avid RC,Yokomo,MIP,SikLidz,FactoryRC, www.randypikerc.com
Randy_Pike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 12:26 PM   #158
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,920
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I think you are exaggerating the amount of equipment that is needed. How many 17.5 motors does the average stock guy own? 2? 3? More?

Modified is not for everyone. But when you race it you remove a lot of the things that people are complaining about. You choose how fast you want to go, not stuck with how fast your equipment allows you to go. And what you don't have.

FYI I have used the exact same 5.0 motor/rotor since the Reedy motor was released a year ago.
I was at the 1st ETS where the Citrix and SP13.5 was used 3 years ago , and i was still using the same speedo and motor till last month when i cooked my speedo (+ on -) and then bought a Tekin and put this in "blinky" mode i am now 2/10ths quicker and it is down to the punch and a slight more top speed.

I think hand out speedo/motor was the best thing for stock here in Europe and even in most club's and out National championship we are running the same rules
sidecarphil1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 12:32 PM   #159
Team EAM
 
EAMotorsports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 9,158
Trader Rating: 79 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to EAMotorsports
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
In my humble opinion this "class" needs a simpler chassis. One more affordable than it is currently.

I agree that the racers should be dictating what classes are ran, however if rules and specs are to change the manufacturers should be involved to make those specs are reasonable and can be met.

An external device could be made as a "restrictor plate" type device. You could set total rpm and even how fast the motor was allowed to rev if you chose to get into that far. But I've never been a fan of adding another component that could be then potentially be blamed or though to be tampered with to taint a win.

I agree with Rick in that mod racing does eliminate the majority of these "issues."
No offense Randy but of course you, as a manufacture, think that it's a chassis concern and not electronic or other issues. There is no chassis issue anywhere else but the US. And from the prices of what people in Europe and other countries pay it doesnt seem to be hurting them any.

The specs are already being met by a few companies out there and met very well. In the past when manufactures are allowed to help "dictate" what the rules are we end up where we are now. Who do you think wrote the current BL rules we have? I know that to an extent manufactures need to have their input given but being in control of it does nothing more than what we have now.

I agree about adding another component isnt a good idea as it opens up to many other variables and possibilities.

EA
__________________
Contact Us
Team EAM, Our Facebook
Team EAM | Xray | RCAmerica | Hudy | APEX Raceway and Hobbies | RC Mission | Killer Concepts | AVID | Hobbywing.
EAMotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 12:46 PM   #160
Tech Elite
 
rocketron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: palm desert
Posts: 2,266
Trader Rating: 16 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I agree.

The ETS has it right. But I am not sure how you will convince stock racers to give away a chance of a performance advantage while accepting a potential disadvantage.
I too agree with your comment Rick.

I'm also glad EA had the opportunity to experience this first hand.
__________________
- SchuurSpeed - 6X ROAR National Stock Champion
- Hobbywing North America Team Manager
rocketron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 12:47 PM   #161
Tech Champion
 
MikeXray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 5,749
Trader Rating: 73 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I agree.

The ETS has it right. But I am not sure how you will convince stock racers to give away a chance of a performance advantage while accepting a potential disadvantage.
They have accepted blinky, whether they are happy with it or not.
__________________
Mike L. Awesomatixusa.com | TQWire.com | Islandraceway.com |JacksonRCracing.com | Horsham RC | Sweepracingusa.com
MikeXray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 01:29 PM   #162
Tech Master
 
ByteStream's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 1,145
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I agree.

The ETS has it right. But I am not sure how you will convince stock racers to give away a chance of a performance advantage while accepting a potential disadvantage.
Are you inferring that a perforamce advantage can be gained by using one 'blinky' speedo rather than another? If so, that is the root of the issue here.
__________________
RCAmerica | Xray | Hudy | KO Propo | Hobbywing HWNA | R1Wurks | BSR Tires
5280 Raceway - www.5280raceway.com
MILE HIGH INDOOR CHAMPS April 19-22nd 2018 @ www.milehighindoorchamps.com
ByteStream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 01:43 PM   #163
Tech Champion
 
Kwikvdub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 5,970
Trader Rating: 91 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Kwikvdub
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairy View Post
......i think we worry too much about what is in the car instead of teaching how to tune the car. ..... Skill and knowledge can not be regulated and these are the two most important things to be a great racer. We try too much to regulate everything and don't foster the idea of getting good and building the skills.
Well said!..... I agree!
__________________
Alex Valdes

TQRacing / 360 v2 RC Raceway / Team Downgrade Designs
Kwikvdub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 01:47 PM   #164
Tech Champion
 
Kwikvdub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 5,970
Trader Rating: 91 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Kwikvdub
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDawson View Post
......To simply say 'run mod' and avoid the drama is an easy way out. There is a reason why the base of racers have moved to the classes away from mod. It wasn't so they wouldn't have to run against the Hohwarts, Haynes, Fairtraces, PL, Heberts; it is because they realized that to run at that level and performance requires a commitment beyond practice and knowledge - but one of $$$ and access. The later two things add the most expense.


....... if I were a motor manufacturer or esc company I would find it opportunistic to supply this type of race effort for the sole reason of disrupting the marketplace and becoming the default. Sure a lot of product sold never hits the track but sensibly - if you never heard of a brand again because their product line would never get a mention in the A main of a race. It wouldn't matter if it was spec or not. Guess what people are going to remember the next time they walk into their LHS.
__________________
Alex Valdes

TQRacing / 360 v2 RC Raceway / Team Downgrade Designs
Kwikvdub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 02:17 PM   #165
Tech Elite
 
Rick Hohwart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,935
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByteStream View Post
Are you inferring that a perforamce advantage can be gained by using one 'blinky' speedo rather than another? If so, that is the root of the issue here.
Speedo and motor. We know that there are many blinky/17.5 combinations that do well and the user has the choice of what he feels is best. I don't think US drivers will accept taking away their choice.

What works in Europe may not work here. Sure there were 95 happy stock racers which is pretty good. But more amazing to me is the fact that there were 72 modified racers.
__________________
www.reedypower.com
Rick Hohwart is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
KARZ Calgary xrayroooahhhh Canadian R/C Scene 19114 12-01-2017 01:26 PM
Proposed R.O.A.R. rules change hairy Electric On-Road 741 05-31-2011 06:03 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 01:04 AM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net