1LikesXray T1FK05
09-26-2005, 12:03 PM
#3736
Team GP do you know what you are talking about? Your running a oneway on carpet in your xray with foams? Im just wondering becasue you are constantly posting LONG drawnout expanations of things that really dont work half the time in real life. And its probably misleading to people that are actually listening to you.
09-26-2005, 12:11 PM
#3737
Originally Posted by L.Fairtrace
Team GP do you know what you are talking about? Your running a oneway on carpet in your xray. I really question how you got on the xray team.
Don't be afraid to try something different than the traditional paradigm's found in RC TC racing today. It just might work.
Who knew that ingesting mold would cure infections?
Advice in racing is always subjective. But I try to be thorough in getting enough information before I try to give any advice, as well as giving all the information needed for someone to figure out if they should take my advice.
However, I try not to knock others advice and simply supply other options for the reader to try.
Last edited by teamgp; 09-26-2005 at 12:34 PM.
09-26-2005, 02:11 PM
#3738
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Farmington Hills, MI and proud of it
Posts: 1,059
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
i run my belts all the way loose. even with a 9x1 motor. although the arent that old... no slippage yet.
09-26-2005, 02:34 PM
#3740
Tech Apprentice
Originally Posted by teamgp
However for weekly club racing on the same layout and with the same setup, once I find the gearing (using a 120t spur) that produces the best lap times, I'll match the same ratio with a smaller spur/pinion combination to reduce drivetrain weight.
Now not to bust your bubble, of trying different things. It might be good to do things different. A one way on carpet?? Properly 99% people run diffs on carpet. The other 1% running a one way or spool, sounds like yourself. It would be interesting to see where the 1% finish in a race compared to the rest of the field.
After seeing you run your car, you might be better off to try a regular setup in your car, and maybe you wont be talking about your "B", "C" main races, and start talking about how you did in the 'A" Main!
09-26-2005, 03:59 PM
#3741
Originally Posted by Troubled
Now not to bust your bubble, of trying different things. It might be good to do things different. A one way on carpet?? Properly 99% people run diffs on carpet. The other 1% running a one way or spool, sounds like yourself. It would be interesting to see where the 1% finish in a race compared to the rest of the field.
* When was the last time anyone actually took the time to try and dial in a one-way setup for foams on carpet with an XRAY? I'm not asking about a setup that was dialed in with a front diff, was then replaced with a one-way, and finally the driver gave up after trying a few common setup tweaks that didn't work to improve the cars handling sufficiently.
* Explain clearly why a one-way is considered to be ineffective for TC's running foams on carpet (i.e. with a four wheel drive car in a high grip situation)?
I don't suspect many have tried and there are a few simple reasons why. First and foremost is none of the top drivers for any manufacturer have used them in races, which is certainly notable. Second, it would take a lot of time, money, patience and understanding of vehicle dynamics & track testing methodology to get it to work well without having past data to go on. This is exactly what is happening in Formula1 where Bridgestone has finally signed more top level Formula1 teams, of which they only had one this year (Ferrari), to help them develop their tires next year. Everyone thought it wasn't a bad idea at first because of Schumacher & Ferrari's success, but now they receive the criticism. With more time, money and feedback, they'll become competitive. This is a hobby which already requires a lot of time and money, and most people do not want to spend more of either. I myself applaud those who venture out, despite the risk. This type entrepreneurial thinking is why the USA was able to overcome adversity from other nations in our early history and become the super power that it is today.
The last time I checked, America was a land where anyone has the right to use their own money and brain.
Although I fully respect and look for help from experienced individuals in any area of life, I choose not to limit myself to whatever the current "experts" say is so. I listen intently and take their input as "advice" and not the end all of what works and doesn't work. Any true engineering mind always looks for what others choose not to see. One of my favorite words...in·no·va·tion (n-vshn) n. 1. The act of introducing something new. 2. Something newly introduced.
I'm sure everyone is free to choose whether they want to hop on the traditional RC bandwagon and play it safe or try something uncommon with the possibility of temporary failure. But just because I've chosen the less traveled route, I certainly don't go around telling others, like yourself, that they are "stupid" for using the tried and proven route. I also applaud them for their way of thinking which brings stability in life.
From what I've read, back when XRAY started designing the original T1, belt drive cars were still considered by most to be inferior. Who knew belt drive cars would be labeled as the top TC car by most RC magazines this year.
Originally Posted by Troubled
After seeing you run your car, you might be better off to try a regular setup in your car, and maybe you wont be talking about your "B", "C" main races, and start talking about how you did in the 'A" Main!
But I'm not mad at ya for speaking your mind.
09-26-2005, 04:27 PM
#3742
Tech Apprentice
Nor am I at you. I just agree with fairtrace, that you have people asking about setup help. What you are giving them is your idea what could work, with what you just said more time and more practice. Some people that are asking for help maybe new to hobby. For you to guide them is really driving them further away by making them chase something that most other racers are not doing. Now that racer goes to someone else, and that racer tells him to change everything on his car it is all wrong. What is that racer going do? Eventually get frustrated and leave the hobby. I am not saying your ideas wont work. And I dont want to say do what everyone else does. However if someone is trying to learn the car and make it handle, it would be easier to do this with the same advise from many people, than advise from one person trying to reinvent the wheel. And by all means, I am not telling you not to help people, and by your responses to all questions, you are full of information. Just think about who is reading it. Not really sure why I got into all this with you, cause I do find it amusing reading your posts and thinking, WTF? 
09-26-2005, 06:09 PM
#3744
Troubled,
I agree with you about giving advice that the new drivers can use effectively with advice from others. What you'll find is that when I give direct advice to specific questions from drivers, it is based on the same information that is commonly given and can be found in things like the XXX Main and Hudy Setup Book.
However, when I'm posting information on actual results from testing or racing with an uncommon setup option that I'm using, I'm not telling anyone that this is the way it should be.
Here is the simple reasoning why I decided to go down the one-way path for carpet racing, versus the traditional adjustable limited slip differential:
1. A one-way ensures maximum use of the drive train power. An LS diff decreases a percentage of the power to the outside wheel where traction is the greatest and gives it to the inside wheel which is unloaded and "slipping" because of the diff action. Unless the front diff is tightened to the point where it functions like a spool, there will always be a loss of acceleration from the drive train. By tightening the diff you can minimize the loss of power, but then you start to introduce the problem of both front wheels fighting each other in the turns where the inside wheel wants to spin faster than the outside wheel because of the steering arc and their different turn radiuses. This scrubs too much speed on corner entry and also causes the front end to hop/skip/bounce. The beauty of the one-way is that it maintains 100% of the power to the outside wheel, while allowing the inside wheel to spin as fast as it needs to for its own tighter radius around any given corner. You can't count on 100% of the power to be applied in the rear either, since it also has an LS diff which is normally even more loose. The high amount of traction provided by foams on carpet is an advantage that should be exploited for acceleration, as well as cornering.
2. The first knock on the one-way that needs to be addressed in another area of the setup is too much initial turn-in steering where the car can become twitchy. I have found that you can address this effectively by using 0 front toe out (which also improves straight line speed and makes the car easier to drive) and a lot of caster (which also improves another weakness of the one-way, on-power push)
3. The second weakness is abrupt loss of traction as the front suspension reaches maximum roll and load prior to the apex. This can be addressed by using a stiff front anti-roll bar (which is also the best way to improve steering response without making a car twitchy; chicanes anyone?)
4. The last weakness is reduced on-power steering or push. The steep caster angle helps here as well. However, an interesting bit of information that I picked up from a well renowned scale racing book called "Engineer To Win" by Carroll Smith states that although a front anti-roll bar may decrease overall front traction mid corner, it actually increases on power steering by transferring the forces applied to the outside wheel, through the bar, to the inside front wheel which is instrumental in steering out of corners as the cars weight shifts to the rear. Carroll illustrated this to emphasize the benefit of using more ackerman, which increases the steering angle of the inside wheel to gain even more steering on corner exit. Of course the one-way and camber effects from the steep caster angle, which causes both front tires to dig in mid corner as the steering wheel is at or close to full lock (the inside wheel now gains a lot of positive camber for a wider contact patch), assist with providing enough traction mid corner that you would normally lose when using a stiff front anti-roll bar.
Now this type of setup became a little more difficult when I switched from the XRC FK to the FK05 with its new front biased weight distribution, which produces less rear mechanical grip. And coupled with the increase of front traction from the steep front caster angle, the rear needs more traction out of the tires, unless you want to mount a lot of weight to the rear. I found the orange-purple/double pink and plaid/magenta combinations were the ticket here to actually bring the car into, and not out of, balance.
The end result from all this is an easy to drive car that scrubs very little speed on corner entry and mid corner, is extremely responsive but not twitchy, has great steering throughout the entire corner and accelerates faster through and out of the corners. I've even found that dialing down the brakes to 60% allowed me to come in extremely fast and tight to corners for passing and then blip the brakes to rotate the rear end around quickly and smoothly, with minimal scrubing of speed. The one-way then allows me to keep the position by accelerating faster out of the corners.
Try it and see for yourself if I'm blowing hot air.
I welcome anyones feedback and constructive criticism.
I agree with you about giving advice that the new drivers can use effectively with advice from others. What you'll find is that when I give direct advice to specific questions from drivers, it is based on the same information that is commonly given and can be found in things like the XXX Main and Hudy Setup Book.
However, when I'm posting information on actual results from testing or racing with an uncommon setup option that I'm using, I'm not telling anyone that this is the way it should be.
Here is the simple reasoning why I decided to go down the one-way path for carpet racing, versus the traditional adjustable limited slip differential:
1. A one-way ensures maximum use of the drive train power. An LS diff decreases a percentage of the power to the outside wheel where traction is the greatest and gives it to the inside wheel which is unloaded and "slipping" because of the diff action. Unless the front diff is tightened to the point where it functions like a spool, there will always be a loss of acceleration from the drive train. By tightening the diff you can minimize the loss of power, but then you start to introduce the problem of both front wheels fighting each other in the turns where the inside wheel wants to spin faster than the outside wheel because of the steering arc and their different turn radiuses. This scrubs too much speed on corner entry and also causes the front end to hop/skip/bounce. The beauty of the one-way is that it maintains 100% of the power to the outside wheel, while allowing the inside wheel to spin as fast as it needs to for its own tighter radius around any given corner. You can't count on 100% of the power to be applied in the rear either, since it also has an LS diff which is normally even more loose. The high amount of traction provided by foams on carpet is an advantage that should be exploited for acceleration, as well as cornering.
2. The first knock on the one-way that needs to be addressed in another area of the setup is too much initial turn-in steering where the car can become twitchy. I have found that you can address this effectively by using 0 front toe out (which also improves straight line speed and makes the car easier to drive) and a lot of caster (which also improves another weakness of the one-way, on-power push)
3. The second weakness is abrupt loss of traction as the front suspension reaches maximum roll and load prior to the apex. This can be addressed by using a stiff front anti-roll bar (which is also the best way to improve steering response without making a car twitchy; chicanes anyone?)
4. The last weakness is reduced on-power steering or push. The steep caster angle helps here as well. However, an interesting bit of information that I picked up from a well renowned scale racing book called "Engineer To Win" by Carroll Smith states that although a front anti-roll bar may decrease overall front traction mid corner, it actually increases on power steering by transferring the forces applied to the outside wheel, through the bar, to the inside front wheel which is instrumental in steering out of corners as the cars weight shifts to the rear. Carroll illustrated this to emphasize the benefit of using more ackerman, which increases the steering angle of the inside wheel to gain even more steering on corner exit. Of course the one-way and camber effects from the steep caster angle, which causes both front tires to dig in mid corner as the steering wheel is at or close to full lock (the inside wheel now gains a lot of positive camber for a wider contact patch), assist with providing enough traction mid corner that you would normally lose when using a stiff front anti-roll bar.
Now this type of setup became a little more difficult when I switched from the XRC FK to the FK05 with its new front biased weight distribution, which produces less rear mechanical grip. And coupled with the increase of front traction from the steep front caster angle, the rear needs more traction out of the tires, unless you want to mount a lot of weight to the rear. I found the orange-purple/double pink and plaid/magenta combinations were the ticket here to actually bring the car into, and not out of, balance.
The end result from all this is an easy to drive car that scrubs very little speed on corner entry and mid corner, is extremely responsive but not twitchy, has great steering throughout the entire corner and accelerates faster through and out of the corners. I've even found that dialing down the brakes to 60% allowed me to come in extremely fast and tight to corners for passing and then blip the brakes to rotate the rear end around quickly and smoothly, with minimal scrubing of speed. The one-way then allows me to keep the position by accelerating faster out of the corners.
Try it and see for yourself if I'm blowing hot air.
I welcome anyones feedback and constructive criticism.
Last edited by teamgp; 09-26-2005 at 06:26 PM.
09-26-2005, 06:47 PM
#3745
keep up the good work gp. you have pointed me back in the right direction on a few things, with links about information ect... sometimes you can forget after being in this hobby for so long, its people that care that make you remember. and remember you don't have to be the best at what you do in order to teach, "trouble" let the man do his thing. everyone has the right to free speech, and the right to his own opinion, send him a pm and keep these threads for positive posts not cat fights and bitching or maybe this could be the reason leave this sport. keep up the good work gp on the and the xray forum. i dont hear anyone complaining there.
all the best
all the best
09-26-2005, 07:07 PM
#3746
Good luck to you TeamGP. Hope to see you again as I did in Frederick, MD. Probably down at Debbie's with some others from Maryland. Me and my Tamiya shocked and front diffed out FK'05. Seriously there is talk about coming down soon. This time I'm running 19T. Hope to see you soon.
Seriously there is talk about coming down soon. This time I'm running 19T. Hope to see you soon.
Last edited by Isaac; 09-26-2005 at 07:17 PM.
09-26-2005, 07:56 PM
#3748
Hello fellas. I am trying to bleed my fk05 shocks. I cant seem to get it right according to the manual. I can bleed my asociated shocks with bladders first time every time. Any suggestions? I'm looking at p 16 of the manual and I understand what to do, it just doesn't seem to do what it is supposed to. I keep ending up with a lot of air in the shock.
Andrew
Andrew
09-26-2005, 08:01 PM
#3749
teamgp
Check out the TheTrack thred in Md/Va... Oct 15 where you at ?
-b
-b
09-26-2005, 08:13 PM
#3750
Originally Posted by andrewdoherty
Hello fellas. I am trying to bleed my fk05 shocks. I cant seem to get it right according to the manual. I can bleed my asociated shocks with bladders first time every time. Any suggestions? I'm looking at p 16 of the manual and I understand what to do, it just doesn't seem to do what it is supposed to. I keep ending up with a lot of air in the shock.
Andrew
Andrew
http://www.teamxray.com/xforum/viewt...r=asc&start=20
I highly recommend the above description. It's very well written, and equally helpful!
-Matt
