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Old 04-16-2005, 09:39 PM   #166
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Well, I finally got the TC4 done and took the car out for a spin on the street. For those of you who think the Novak 5800 isn't fast, it makes me realize how far I need to go. It's almost too much for me to handle. I'll have to take it to SoCal and try it on a track where I actually have to make it turn for real rather than the wide open street.
One thing I have a question is the loud whine. Is this normal? It's almost loud enough to disturb the neighbors which is why I don't have nitro.
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Old 04-16-2005, 11:10 PM   #167
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Never had that with the SS5800 on my Pro4.
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Old 04-17-2005, 02:56 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally posted by alanfujii
Well, I finally got the TC4 done and took the car out for a spin on the street. For those of you who think the Novak 5800 isn't fast, it makes me realize how far I need to go. It's almost too much for me to handle. I'll have to take it to SoCal and try it on a track where I actually have to make it turn for real rather than the wide open street.
One thing I have a question is the loud whine. Is this normal? It's almost loud enough to disturb the neighbors which is why I don't have nitro.
check your pinion/spur mesh and beveal gear meshing in diffs.
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Old 04-17-2005, 09:10 AM   #169
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I bought a titanium pinion gear. Could that be the problem? In retrospect maybe I should have bought a plastic one.
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Old 04-17-2005, 09:40 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally posted by alanfujii
I bought a titanium pinion gear. Could that be the problem? In retrospect maybe I should have bought a plastic one.
i suggest you using hpi racing pinions, they are really quiet. i tried robinson racing, but it was hell of noise maker hpi's teeth are not that sharp...
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Old 04-17-2005, 10:21 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg M
What motors actually conform with the IFMAR rules?
AFAIK right now only Novak SS4300 and SS5800 motors fit IFMAR rules. Reedy NEO will do but it's not availiable on street yet. All those Hacker rocket-engine doesn't fit the rules (or did it? someone please correct me if I made mistake)

Hope Novak's new ESC or LRP Sphere ESC will be available soon. I don't wanna race with brushed motor anymore (and SS5800 is too slow to do modify). I hate those motor works
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Old 04-17-2005, 12:32 PM   #172
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I know that is correct for the ROAR rules as they only allow sensored systems. IMFAR allow sensorless as well.
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Old 04-17-2005, 12:38 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg M
I know that is correct for the ROAR rules as they only allow sensored systems. IMFAR allow sensorless as well.
doesn't efra, roar should fall under ifmar ?

i don't get it, what the f... is with those sensored systems, why won't they just allow any brushless motor just make any rules in size? what's the difference if its wounded in y or any other method...
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Old 04-17-2005, 01:02 PM   #174
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The big problem for me is I'm sort of leading the charge for brushless in my country and need to figure out these rules and what they mean pretty quickly so I can get some rules voted in for them. I have the chance to get rules in that best suit the racer, not the manufacturer, but they also need to keep the racing close and not out of control with expense.
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Old 04-17-2005, 01:06 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg M
The big problem for me is I'm sort of leading the charge for brushless in my country and need to figure out these rules and what they mean pretty quickly so I can get some rules voted in for them. I have the chance to get rules in that best suit the racer, not the manufacturer, but they also need to keep the racing close and not out of control with expense.

no matter what you do, racing WILL ALWAYS be exensive, even in stock class, cause you buy highest grade batteries, use good esc etc. i don't see the point, any class is expensive...

what is the difference tell me? to pay for brushless controller 250-300$ when you pay 200 for good brushed controller, o even more...
i don't think 100-200$ will make really big difference for mod class.
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Old 04-17-2005, 01:20 PM   #176
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We have it pretty good here, our stock class runs silver can motors and max 1500mah unmatched packs, our biggest class. We run Pro-Stock which is the same as stock in the US, modified with a 12 turn limit and we have a Super Touring class with wedge bodies and unlimited motor turn. I want to bring brushless to the Super Touring class, so our Modified will continue with a brushed motor.

I guess I'm not that worried about the expense, just keeping everyone sort of even, but fast. Last thing I want is rules which only allow the Novak and LRP systems. I'd love some rules to run my U-Force with the likes of a Shadow, but I have to convince representatives from other clubs in the country to pass the rule and going too far off the IFMAR or ROAR rules may stop it going in.
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Old 04-17-2005, 01:32 PM   #177
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we got same situation here... but people don't want to allow powerful brushless, as they run simple escs and 12 turn motors, and they are not able to buy powerful brushless motors..

;/

but i still run with it on practice... runing with slower motor is easier after my lehner
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Old 04-18-2005, 06:54 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally posted by Exe
doesn't efra, roar should fall under ifmar ?

i don't get it, what the f... is with those sensored systems, why won't they just allow any brushless motor just make any rules in size? what's the difference if its wounded in y or any other method...
IFMAR does allow sensorless brushless. Read 4.3 Motor rule:

Quote:
BRUSHLESS MOTORS:

General definition of a Brushless Motor:

a) Sensored or sensorless motors are allowed.

b) The motor has to be rebuildable. Ball bearings are allowed.

c) If the motor is sensored:

- It must use a six position JST ZH connector model number ZHR-6 or equivalent connector with 6 JST part number SZH-002T-P0.5 26-28 awg contacts or equivalent.

Wire sequence must be as follows:
Pin #1 - Black wire ground potential
Pin #2 - orange wire phase C
Pin #3 - white wire phase B
Pin #4 - green wire phase A
Pin #5 - blue wire temp control, 10 k Thermistor referenced to ground potential
Pin #6 - red wire + 5.0 volts d.c. +/- 10%.
Compatible speed control must use the 6 position JST header part number X-6B-ZR-SMX-TF (where the X denotes the style of the header), or equivalent.

- The power connector has to be clearly marked A, B, C.
A for phase A
B for phase B
C for phase C

d) `05` size specifications
Can:
Overall maximum diameter is 36.02mm measured at whatever point yields the maximum dimension, excluding solder tabs or lead wires. Overall minimum diameter is 34.00mm measured at whatever point yields the minimum dimension, excluding solder tabs or lead wires. Maximum length is 53.00mm measured from the mounting face of the motor to the furthest most point of the end bell, not including solder tabs, lead wires or original manufacturer’s logo or name. Minimum length is 50.00mm measured from the mounting face of the motor to the furthest most point of the end bell, not including solder tabs, lead wires or original manufacturer’s logo or name. Motor mounting holes must be on 1.00- inch (25.40mm) centres.

Stack/Stator:
Stack minimum length 19.30mm, maximum 21.00mm. Stack inside diameter minimum 12.50mm, maximum 16.00mm. If a stack is used then it must be continuous. The laminations have to be one after the other without anything in between. The thickness of the stack plates is 0.35 +/- 0.05mm. All laminations must be of the same material.

Winding:
Only three slot (phase) “Y” wound stators are permitted. No delta wound stators allowed. Only circular (round) pure copper wire permitted. No turn limit.

Rotor:
Shaft diameter must be 0.125 inches (3.175mm). Only one piece, two pole bonded Neodymium or Ferrite magnetic rotors are permitted. Magnet minimum length 23.00mm, maximum 27.00mm. Magnet minimum diameter 12.00mm, maximum 5.50mm.

e) All motors must have the original manufacturer’s logo or name moulded into the end bell.

f) A minimum of two thousand (2000) brushless motors must be available at the time of approval. A minimum of three hundred (300) brushless motors must have been sold to at least three (3) distributors or hobby shops or OEM’s at the time of submittal. The manufacturer has to provide an address of a hobby shop or the like, that any driver who wishes to obtain these motors at the time of the approval can do so. No hybrid (mixing of parts from approved brushless motors) allowed.
And ROAR also allow sensorless brushless, check rule book page42:

Quote:
For Modified Electric Classes current rules will now include brushless with the following
rules:

Modified Brushless ROAR Rules

8.7.5.0 GENERAL DEFINITION OF A BRUSHLESS MOTOR

8.7.5.1 Sensored or sensorless motors are allowed.

8.7.5.2 The motor has to be rebuildable. Ball bearings are allowed.

8.7.5.3 If the motor is sensored:
It must use a six position JST ZH connector model number ZHR-6 or equivalent connector with 6 JST part number SZH-002T-PO.5 26-28 awg contacts or equivalent. Wire sequence must be as follows:
Pin #1- Black wire-ground potential
Pin #2- Orange wire-phase C
Pin #3- White wire-phase B
Pin #4- Green wire-phase A
Pin #5- Blue wire-temp control, 10 k Thermistor referenced to ground potential
Pin #6- Red wire-+ 5.0 volts =/- 10%
For clarification pin #1 is on the left hand side of the above connector with the wires exiting the top of the connector and the plastic tangs that hold the contacts in the housing are facing forward. See drawing below.

Compatible speed control must use the six position JST header part number X-6B-ZRSMX-TK (where the X denotes the style of the header), or equivalent.
The power connector has to be clearly marked A, B, C. on both speed control and motor.
A for phase A
B for phase B
C for phase C

8.7.5.4 “ 05” size dimensions.
Can:
Overall maximum diameter is 36.02mm measured at whatever point yields the maximum dimension, excluding solder tabs or lead wires. Overall minimum diameter is 34.00mm measured at whatever point yields the minimum dimension, excluding solder tabs or lead wires. Maximum length is 53.00mm measured from the mounting face of the motor to the furthest most point of the end bell, not including solder tabs, lead wires or original manufacturer’s logo or name. Minimum length is 50.00mm measured from the mounting face of the motor to the furthest most point of the end bell, not including solder tabs, lead wires or original manufacturer’s logo or name. Motor mounting holes must be on 1.00- inch (25.40mm) centers.

Stack/Stator:
Stack minimum length 19.30mm, maximum 21.00mm. Stack inside diameter minimum 12.50mm, maximum 16.00mm. If a stack is used then it must be continuous. The
laminations have to be one after the other without anything in between. The thickness of the stack plates is 0.35 +/- 0.05mm. All laminations must be of the same material.

Winding:
Only three slot (phase) “Y”wound stators are permitted. No delta wound stators allowed. Only circular (round) pure copper wire permitted. No turn limit.

Rotor:
Shaft diameter must be 0.125 inches (3.175mm). Only one piece, two pole bonded Neodymium or Ferrite magnetic rotors are permitted. Magnet minimum length 23.00mm, maximum 27.00mm. Magnet minimum diameter 12.00mm, maximum 15.50mm.

8.7.5.5 All motors must have the original manufacturer’s logo or name moulded into the end bell.

8.7.5.6 A minimum of two thousand (2000) brushless motors must be available at the time of approval. A minimum of three hundred (300) brushless motors must have been sold to at least three (3) distributors or hobby shops or OEM’s at the time of submittal. The manufacturer has to provide an address of a hobby shop or the like, that any driver who wishes to obtain these motors at the time of the approval can do so. No hybrid (mixing of parts from approved brushless motors) allowed.

8.7.5.7 The maximum retail price of a modified brushless motor shall be $129.00
JMRCA rule doesn't prohibit brushless, it only said motor must get JMRCA authorization to use in race. So far I see no brushless on JMRCA motor list.


So, yes, both sensored and sensorless brushless are allowed in IFMAR and ROAR. As for JMRCA, it's all depend on if the motor is on motor list. EFRA, I don't know since I'm not familiar with EFRA, someone please fill in the info if you know.

The problems for those Hacker (and other brand) rocket-engine are mostly size and/or winding. Lots of those rocket-engine brushless motor using delta winding, and/or didn't meet the size limitation. So it's not the problem of sensored or sensorless, it's the problem of size and/or winding.

As you can see, ROAR brushless rule almost identical with IFMAR, the only different is ROAR has price limit where IFMAR doesn't.

I would suggest you if you plan to do modify racing with brushless, the best idea is waitting for Novak's new system and/or LRP Sphere ESC + Reedy NEO1 motor combination. Both new systems haven't released yet but prototype already raced during ROAR Nats (and result is awesome). So the best idea is wait till these systems availiable, or, you can find some exist system which is fast enough and meet all the rule. But if there is any? I don't know. All I know is Novak SS5800 is not fast enough for modify racing to against 8T motor.
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Old 04-18-2005, 07:18 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally posted by diesel
Can lehners, hackers, kontronics be taken apart for servicing? What do you guys do when servicing your motors...clean out dirt, change out bearings? Can i say that feigao motors are meant to be used till it stopped working?
I have been running a hacker for about 3 years, and people think b/less is expensive LOL, same controller and motor week in week out.

So to answer your question you can take it apart yourself if you want to, very easy. Look at it and then put it back together, that's your service done, I haven't even put a drop of oil in the bearings yet, maybe I will in a few years time

Coxy.
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Old 04-18-2005, 07:29 AM   #180
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what the hell is with them? what's the stupid difference if it is wounded in one way or another? why they can't allow all windings? i don't get it...
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