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Old 03-28-2012, 06:28 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
Use VRC to train the brake side of your finger. True story.
+1

remember to 'adjust' your radio's throttle with a lighter to make sure it really is tight on your finger.
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Old 03-28-2012, 06:36 PM   #32
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I think it depends too much in the type of corner and car setup to dictate which is faster to the point where you can not make a valid claim. A high speed sweep with high rear grip will favor a tad of trail braking. A slow U turn will favor straight line braking to not upset the car too much. If anything its not as important to learn to drive a new way (unless youre terrible) but rather learn to set up for your driving way. Not saying you shouldnt adjust style, just dont need to pick one style to fit everything.
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:01 PM   #33
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceG5Z3MNS-Q

Watching this video you can see the subtle differences in braking points the pros are using.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:06 PM   #34
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Reinhart goes from 5th to 2nd in the last minute, (with a bit of luck.)
A good race to watch and see how much braking goes on in a mod class.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:36 PM   #35
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Imagine if there was grip...
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:31 AM   #36
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I haven't seen anyone mention that technically coasting is just a really mild form of braking. Driveline friction, tire scrub, even aero forces ( at higher speeds ) are acting on the car while coasting ( slowing you down ) as well as transferring weight to the front tires.

So when thinking about the theory, it may help to visualize braking as negative acceleration.

Fox88gt's earlier comments are spot on. There is a finite amount of grip. You can use it to accelerate ( positive or negative ), turn or a combination of both. But you will never be able to accelerate ( power or brake ) as hard in a turn as you can when traveling in a straight line.

I would also add that when dealing with a series of corners linked together in a complex, it's usually fastest to early apex the first corner, to set up a late apex in the last corner that leads on to a straight.

Hope that makes sense,
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:01 AM   #37
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Modern brushless setups don't have anywhere near the same amount of drag as an old brushed setup. They can however emulate this with drag brake. But i promise you none of the really fast guys use drag brake

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With braking properly your exit speed will be the same as without braking. If your coming around the corner slower when you using braking, then you are over braking.

The thing about RC is our speedo's and motors have alot of drag built in to them, which is braking the car for you. (this is mentioned by acouple of previous posters). the drag is enough braking for most cases, its only those tight 180's where the driver actually needs to apply brakes, and if dont well you can really make up some time, or drive a tighter line into a corner to make a pass.

Its just another driving tool for the old "tool box". Might not be the solution all the time, but it doesnt hurt to be good at braking when needed.

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Old 03-29-2012, 01:08 AM   #38
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Modern brushless setups don't have anywhere near the same amount of drag as an old brushed setup. They can however emulate this with drag brake. But i promise you none of the really fast guys use drag brake

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Originally Posted by Shawn68z View Post
With braking properly your exit speed will be the same as without braking. If your coming around the corner slower when you using braking, then you are over braking.

The thing about RC is our speedo's and motors have alot of drag built in to them, which is braking the car for you. (this is mentioned by acouple of previous posters). the drag is enough braking for most cases, its only those tight 180's where the driver actually needs to apply brakes, and if dont well you can really make up some time, or drive a tighter line into a corner to make a pass.

Its just another driving tool for the old "tool box". Might not be the solution all the time, but it doesnt hurt to be good at braking when needed.

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Old 03-29-2012, 06:06 AM   #39
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I haven't seen anyone mention that technically coasting is just a really mild form of braking.
Agreed. This concept embodies my driving style. When braking is necessary I generally attempt to do as much as I can in the shortest amount of distance my chassis will allow depending on the corner, but I always lift early enough to allow the car to roll to my apex. The car IS naturally decelerating but because I am not braking the tires have more grip available to corner thru the center.

I do believe breaking down a corner like this is VERY difficult in rc and I am by no means a great racer. Although driving like this may not be for everyone I believe in the right hands it will ultimately yield the fastest lap

Now passing, that's a different story.
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Old 03-29-2012, 06:46 AM   #40
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agreed. keep in mind the traction circle. only a finite amount of grip can be set to accelleration, braking and cornering. now, it just depends on the kind of track/corner where you'll be putting (and balancing) your grip on.



and to add, basic 1:1 circuit racing techniques/mantras are the out-in-out and slow in/fast out, but that is usually only true for simple/single apex corners. for complex sections where there are a lots of racing lines to choose from or multiple apexes, I heard from K.Tsuchiya that you should focus more on the last corner. Kinda like how you would tackle the section when you're driving the other way around.
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Old 03-29-2012, 08:05 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by kb525 View Post
I think it depends too much in the type of corner and car setup to dictate which is faster to the point where you can not make a valid claim. A high speed sweep with high rear grip will favor a tad of trail braking. A slow U turn will favor straight line braking to not upset the car too much. If anything its not as important to learn to drive a new way (unless youre terrible) but rather learn to set up for your driving way. Not saying you shouldnt adjust style, just dont need to pick one style to fit everything.
I agree here; the type of corner, track layout, track conditions and your SETUP all have to do with whether or not you need to brake or can scrub speed to make it through a corner. To be fast you have to constantly adjust your car AND constantly adjust your driving style to get an optimum qualifier or main out of what you set on the track. There are no pit stops for a wedge adjustment or wing adjustment; you are at the mercy of what you set down on the track.

From my experience learning to use the brakes during a run has really improved my driving abilities, I’m not saying braking is faster but it helped me become smoother with steering and throttle/brake inputs. I’ll admit I’m not the best at setting up a car, I have a general idea of what changes do what and how to make them happen but I am usually chasing the optimal setup throughout the day (hopefully my competitors are too ). If I set my car down and I have a push I am a braking fiend trying to get my car to make a nice tight corner; if the car is loose or wants to traction roll I am smoother and roll through corners more.

At our last club race after one of the qualifiers a few of us changed radios and tried other cars; one was balanced, one had too much grip and traction rolled and the other pushed like a dump truck (my car ) it was a fun experiment to A, see what the other cars were capable of and B, see what kind of car setup and driving style best suited your personal preferences.

So in summary, find out what YOU prefer and try everything to see what’s quickest for your track and layout.
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Old 03-29-2012, 08:19 AM   #42
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Do you guys ever find yourselves instead of braking into the corner or letting completely off the throttle, pulsing the throttle moderately into it then out of the corner?

Probably a bad habit, but its help me deal with the corners better...
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Old 03-29-2012, 08:38 AM   #43
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I always get a kick out of these threads...it does not take long before the technical data comes out and before you know it the traction circle graph becomes a mainstay in the thread. I find that graphic very interesting, and from a theory perspective is a good point, but has so little to do with what is happening when you are driving your car around the track.

This really is a simple topic and comes down to a couple of factors. The first and most important factor would have to be the motor you are running. Second would be chassis setup for the motor you are running.

To take the first topic...This is the biggest factor when you consider how you need to drive. If you are running 17.5 or even 13.5 motors then driving around the track round in most cases will be faster. The reason is that these motors really do not generate a ton of torque in comparison to the weight of the vehicle it is trying to push. So, when you brake into a corner you lose a ton of momentum. With these slower motors it is really all about maintaining a higher level of corner speed. There are some people that can drive point and shoot with a 17.5 motor and be fast, but I think that is more of the exception and not the rule. If you are braking a lot around the track with a 17.5 blinky car then you are doing something wrong. These cars simply do not generate enough top end speed to justify a lot of brake in most cases.

When you talk about mod motors, it is very tough to drive round and swoopy with a 5.5 on carpet (at least for me). So I tend to drive a lot more point and shoot and try to keep my car pointed straight during the braking process. This way the car does not get upset quite as much. I watch a lot of videos of the pros and what I almost always observe is they drive in straight lines and then brake into the corner and then let the front end of the car pull them around the corner. This is a very effective way to control the power of the modified motors. Since these motors have so much torque on the bottom end you don't have to worry so much about the amount of time it take to get back up to speed when coming out of the corner. The power is very instant and so you can afford a lose a bit more corner speed compared to a slower motor.

Chassis setup is super important when it comes to the appropriate motor and ensuring that the car is as efficient as possible for the kind of class you are running. If you are running stock or super stock classes then the car has to maintain a constant level of corner speed from beginning to end of the corner and must stay a lot flatter around the track. The more efficient and less drag you have on the vehicle the faster you can go. The setup has to be really good and must rotate very well through a corner.

On the mod cars is a little different story...I think that mod cars will almost always push around the track just due to the large increase of speed and torque. Setup is important, but I think you can get away with a car that is not quite perfect in mod more so then you can in a slower motor class. Mod will test the drivers ability to control and be smooth on throttle. This tends to lead to a more point and shoot style of driving. In this class you also have to really control the other end of the throttle and really learn how to smoothly brake into a corner so that you can slow down enough to rotate through the corner.

My advice is always...try different ways of driving and let the lap times determine what driving style is best for you. I personally drive point and shoot with mod and very round with the stock motors. But, after watching Hara run 17.5 at Vegas the same way he runs mod made me believe that there is not one right answer for everyone. If you watch closely you can see the difference in approach between the two different classes. Good luck and have fun learning!

Check these out...

17.5 Video from IIC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1sPnRnyKo8

Mod video from IIC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7T9u2K5sns
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:53 AM   #44
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Completely disagree with the first paragraph. Racing is an extremely technical sport so it should be no surprise that technicians and engineers fill the garages with charts and harddruves full of data. This information has everything to do with what is going on when you race around the track. Anybody who doesn't get that should probably go play football.

I feel entertained when people enter handling discussions and start talking about treating your car different depending on what motor is in it like it actually makes a difference. If your mod car is pushy, you're overdriving it. Its that simple.
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:07 AM   #45
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Completely disagree with the first paragraph. Racing is an extremely technical sport so it should be no surprise that technicians and engineers fill the garages with charts and harddruves full of data. This information has everything to do with what is going on when you race around the track. Anybody who doesn't get that should probably go play football.

I feel entertained when people enter handling discussions and start talking about treating your car different depending on what motor is in it like it actually makes a difference. If your mod car is pushy, you're overdriving it. Its that simple.
Funny, I bet you think you can learn a lot about playing football because you play Madden on the Xbox too. It is OK to disagree with people and have an opinion, but I am not quite sure I would be so quick to judge. The question was about how to drive and the different approaches to cornering. Looking at charts and reading forums all day long does not make you a good driver. The only thing that helps in this sport is track time. The more you get the better you get...Simple!
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