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Old 08-01-2005, 08:56 PM   #16
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I have problems with my 4 balance system too...

How do you guys balance "exactly" all 4 scales... ? the rubber stubs on the bottom of the scales make their height slightly different....

I have a board that I use a 1" bullseye level to keep steady... is that sufficient?

And since the scale has a large surface, how do you make sure you put the car on the scales so that each tire is exactly in the middle of each scale?

Sorry, but I spent nearly $140 on this thing and it doesn't work, frustrating me to no end. Hope you don't mind me asking here SCML.
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Old 08-01-2005, 09:05 PM   #17
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what ever happened to the TRUSTED mip station its all you need to tweak your ride...scales are only as good if they work perfectly in sync , cheap scales even cheaper readings.....flatter is always better
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Old 08-01-2005, 10:07 PM   #18
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try making a tweak board that is shaped like a big u put a single scale in it and flip the car left to right front to rear that away you get rid of the level problem and the indifference of the scales .....
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Old 08-01-2005, 10:21 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by UnderDaHill
A) true all 4 tires to the same size
B) back out droop screws
C) set my ride height on all four corners the way I want it (make sure the center of chassis is also above legal limit of 4mm foam and 5mm rubber)
D) Make sure camber is correct on all tires (it changes with ride height)
E) Put car on scales
F) press on car a few times and start adjusting shocks... press on car a few times after each adjustment below.
G) I try to adjust aposing corners exactly the same amount to add weight then remove exactly the same amount from the other two apposing corners to remove weight. Adjusting one set of corners up then the other down will keep you ride height the same as you get the weights correct.
H) once you get as close as you can adusting all 4 corners in apposing pairs you can do the last bit of fine tuning one shock at a time.
I) Rotate car 180 to make sure the corners still weight the same on different scales.
I) tighten droop screws on all four corners so the spring is not compressed but doesn't move around
J) take off tires and make sure left and right droop are the same (tighten only... do not loosen and let slack back into the spring)
K) Put tires back on and put car on scales. It should still be the same.
Bob: Good suggestion there. I am still very new at setting up the car and would like to understand it more.

1) Initial setup of height of the car, does the L/R spring preload needs to be the same? For example, if i want the front ride height to be 5mm, i often need to set the shock collars at different levels to achieve this height. Is this the right way? or should i set the both the L/R shock collars at the same level and balance using weights?

2) If following your instruction above, tighten the droop screw after the car is balanced, wouldn't that affect the ride height? I have always thought droop needs to adjusted first with out connecting the shocks.

Sorry if those questions sounds dumb... but these 2 are my major questions that I have been trying to find an answer to.
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Old 08-01-2005, 10:55 PM   #20
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I would suggest setting the pre-load equal first NOT the ride height.

I have done the 4 scales thing. It turned my TC3 from a brodie spining turd, to a dialed ass ride. I noticed though that when I started by setting ride height first, the preloads were screwed up (to counter the imbalance of the car) Then as you start adding weight, everything gets a all screwed up, because then you change the ride height, then you adjust preload, then the weight is off again. Its a vicious cycle. START with the pre-loads the same. Use calipers if you have to. Just make sure both rear shocks are the same and both front shocks are the same, and that the car is somewhere 'close' to your ideal ride height

Also, I found something to be counter-intuitive at first. By deacreasing pre-load on any given corner, you decrease the weight on that corner. And, conversely, by increasing pre-load on any one corner, the weight (as seen on the scale) will be increased on that corner. THATS why you need to start with even preloads!!!! Otherwise you might be adding weight to places that don't need it.

Or, just get a Xray FK04. I put mine on the scales, and it was PErFECT withough ever adding any weight or anything. I love this car!!!

On my TC3 I had to ADD 1.5 oz of weight to the left rear of the car, next to the motor, and .25oz to the front left, on top of the chassis brace. And my chassis was milled for batteries closer to CL to boot. ITs that far off with these new heavy batteries. (designed for 1700-2000's)
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Old 08-02-2005, 12:17 AM   #21
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Thanks for the reply Pitcrew.

I will take that as a good suggestion. Starting with even pre-loads.

But that leads to one other thing, if all the preloads are set first within the "ideal ride height", and after balancing all 4 corners to get the right balance, what do I have to do to fine tune the ride height after all the necessary add/take off weights has been done? There are no other ways to adjust rideheight besides the pre-load on the shock, wouldn't the fine tuning at the end upset all the hardwork that was done previously?

Or should I say that once the car is "perfectly balanced" the preload will be equal on both the L/R.?

Thanks again.
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Old 08-02-2005, 07:45 AM   #22
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You can not balance a car's weight using 4 scales...Not possible because there are to many variables. The easiest way to balance a cars weight is to hang the car from a center point of the front and rear towers.
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Old 08-02-2005, 08:05 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by PW
You can not balance a car's weight using 4 scales...Not possible because there are to many variables. The easiest way to balance a cars weight is to hang the car from a center point of the front and rear towers.
Funny the guys on here talking about hanging strings and using MIP tweak bords are the ones that have made A mains at national and world level competitions!

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Old 08-02-2005, 10:23 AM   #24
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Bunch of things to respond to here -

First off, the height of the scales is not ultra critical. A few mm off on one corner of one scale is not going to kill anyone. The car can be placed anywhere on the scale's pad, it's not critical to have it perfectly in the center, but I always try to get them pretty close.

Your board should be level, this IS ultra critical. Use a standard bubble level, or get board with a bullseye level built in.

There are 2 discussions going on here, one on corner weighting the car, and the other on balancing the chassis using static weight. These are completely different, and unrelated in a sense.

Corner balancing requires that you adjust preload to achieve equal cross weight (or whatever cross weight you want). Yes, that tweaks the car, but unless your cross weight is 100 equal, your car is tweaked. Even preloads are not required, and unless your car has perfect weight balance (50/50 front/rear and side/side), even preloads will cause your cross weight to be way off.

This is not new technology, and I find it funny that some of you posting here are saying it shouldn't be used. It's been used in full size cars for a long time, and is a staple of good suspension setup.

Balancing your chassis is moving static wieght around in the car until you can achieve a 50/50 front/rear side/side relationship, if so desired. You CANNOT do this by preloading your springs.

Basics -

All 4 corners will seldom, if ever be equal, do not chase this with preload, use static weight. Same goes for front/rear or side/side, use static weight.

You want the Right Front and Left Rear weights to equal the Left Front and Right Rear wieghts only. It doesn't matter that the right front is heavier than the left front... etc.

Process -

Set your ride height, I check side to side in the front and rear to get the chassis equal on both sides.

Put your car on the scales, record the weights. If the RF/LR doesn't = the LF/RR, adjustment is necessary. Tightening the preload on one corner adds weight, loosening removes weight. So to keep your ride height the same, all you have to do is add weight on the corner that needs it, and take it away on the opposite side of the same end, in equal amounts. The ride height on that end will remain the same, but the actual height of each corner may change.

That's all.

Remember - Do not try to mix corner weight and chassis balance. Whoever posted that you should have equal preload, and use weights to get the corner weights right, is a little mixed up. These are completely seperate.

There is more than enough information for anyone to fully understand how to use 2 or 4 or even 1 scale to corner wieght thier car on this thread. The sheet I uploaded does it for you, so no one should be complaining that thier system doesn't work. Just be careful to not take every post in this thread seriously, there is lots of speculation, and tons of misinformation. You can always go back to the experts if necessary - http://www.ground-control.com/?D=e04...ffa901ba6b5aaa

Balancing your chassis is a different story, Paul's suggestion is a good one. You could also use same length rods bolted in place of the shocks, and use the 4 scales. There can be NO moving parts if you are trying to balance with static weight using scales.

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Old 08-03-2005, 09:58 AM   #25
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Scml got it all about right. First you should endeavor to make all of your static weight what you want them to be. Equal or whatever.... then once you have that accomplished you should worry about the dynamic weights on each corner. By dynamic I mean corner weight as adjusted with shock pre loads. If your static weight are in the ball park then your dynamic weights should also be very close to begin with. If you need more than say one full round on any particular shock collar then something is prolly a miss. I use this as a guide line and my car usually tweaks perfect on either scales or a tweak board.
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Old 08-03-2005, 02:03 PM   #26
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Remember - Do not try to mix corner weight and chassis balance. Whoever posted that you should have equal preload, and use weights to get the corner weights right, is a little mixed up. These are completely seperate.
All I know is when I went at it as you describe, by setting ride height first (having different pre-loads at each corner) I had a big mess on my hands.

By starting with even preloads that are close to your ride height (so the front isn't at say 4mm and the rear at 7...) then you can have a better idea how the static weight in the car is affecting each tire, by measurement on each scale.

Heres the other issue. If you end up balancing the car, and your preloads, say on the rear, or not even or close left to right, then your going to have a problem. Namely, unless you run very little droop, most cars have enough down travel to make the spring go completly slack, and even have some room. If you have one side that has significantly more preload than the other, as the rear end of the car bounces, the side with more preload will continue to droop, but the side that has gone slack will have a different rate of droop (speed)(so the one tire with more preload may stay on the ground, but the other has no more push, so the chassis leans that direction) Now you have serious tweak, not at ride-height, but over ride-height when your car is bouncing and such.

I balanced my XRay this way, and I can adjust my rear and/or front pre-loads to a couple thousands of each other, and my ride height will be spot on right to left. My car is dialed and I can hang with some of the fastest guys in the nation.
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Old 08-04-2005, 11:15 AM   #27
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It seems to me that some guys are making the mistake of using scales as tweak station, scales don't work that way. Scales are for weight distribution, not tweak adjustments. To get best results from scales you must make sure all dampers are equal, there's no binding in the suspension and use tweak station before using the scales.
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Old 08-04-2005, 11:56 AM   #28
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You can use scales as either chassis balancing or tweak. Problem is getting four scales the exact same height is the problem.

To use scales for chassis balancing: Set car to ride height using preload, now set to 0 droop. Tighten down preload to keep car at ride height. Put car on scales, add weight untill you get equal left/right balance.

It would take a book to explain tweak but the short is you need the diagonals to be the same weight RR+LF=LR+RF. Adding preload to one corner makes it lighter and the opposite corner heavier. It will change the other 2 corners a little depending on spring rates and front/rear weight distribution.
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Old 08-04-2005, 12:45 PM   #29
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Just so you guys know, if you are trying to set cross weights without changing the ride height it really simple. If you have to much weight on the LR and the RF then you would need to take preload out of those two corners. If you take equal amounts out of both of those corners and add equal amounts of preload to the other two corners (LF and RR) the ride height will not change. What ever you do to one diagonal axis of the car do the opposite to the other axis. This is really easy with TC's because you usually run the same springs in both fronts shocks and then also both of the rear springs are the same as each other. I use scales to set my tweak and it is always right.
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Old 08-04-2005, 02:09 PM   #30
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Well, I'm not an expert.
I just think that making sure that the car is balanced so that the rr + lr have the same preload, and conversely the front r + l have the same preload. That way the car will handle more neutral. Now obviously if you have to add weight way out from CL to get the desired balance, you may have an issue with that weight acting upon the car with leverage against the other weight of the car. Therefore when the car is moving and cornering, that added weight can have much more effect on the handling of the car, than it does on the scales.

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