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Old 03-04-2012, 01:39 AM   #16
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What you are asking ROAR to do is not what they are there for: This is what ROAR do...

1.1.1 Background:
ROAR (Remotely Operated Auto Racers) began in 1967 to promote and regulate radio-controlled auto racing for fuel powered model cars. Over the years, ROAR has developed and refined the rules to govern the racing of both electric and fuel powered cars at ROAR-sanctioned events. These rules have been designed to:
 Guide the development of the sport
 Provide for its growth and welfare
 Establish minimum requirements for participation in the sport
 Ensure fair and equitable application to all aspects of the sport and its
participants.

That does not include the things you are asking for. You should also be aware that the ROAR Rules give ownership of those Rules to ROAR, and give anyone wanting to use them the need to gain written permission. Add to that the insurance issues mentioned above, and you have the whole Rockies to climb before anything is going to happen.

(As an aside, the IRA is the Irish Republican Army, a terrorist organisation still legal in the US though banned in the UK. The US got into all sorts of trouble because significant funds were raised in The US in the 60s, 70s and 80s which went to buying arms from Syria that were used to kill British citizens and servicemen. Just think you should pick another title, that's all....)

Why can you not do all this under the ROAR banner? Wouldn't that provide you with more time to do what you think is required, rather than trying to get insurance arranged and clubs signed up to your Rules (even if you can get your Rules agreed without ROAR suing you) and arrange Championship meetings? How can you be sure that your volunteers in other of your regions and states will be as active as you?

You have tried this before in America, indeed one organisation actually paid cash prizes at various levels of its racing. None of them are around today. Whatever you think of what ROAR does, it is clearly necessary and it clearly works since they are here and no one else is.

I think that your organisation is likely to last about as long as this thread, because you are not taking advantage of what ROAR does and making it better. You ideas are great, and when this type of thing is done we do get more drivers. When the publicity drives like that are done within the National Association Rules, and not outside them, they work. History tells us that every attempt to form new organisations as the means of getting more drivers doesn't work.

I am from another country and not a ROAR member. I hope you'll re-consider doing this under the ROAR umbrella because that is likely to make it successful. It is difficult to see how your proposal will end well.
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Old 03-04-2012, 05:20 AM   #17
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Everything the OP wants are the things that CLUBS do, a club does not have to belong to ROAR, it can be independant of every organization in every country. The only time ROAR is of any importance to a club racer is if they want to race in events that are ROAR scantioned, such as, state and national events.

Don't like that there are no clubs out there that will cater to those whome you think need catering to, then start a club, draft up your own rulesets and start racing.

At the end of the day, these are toy cars and you should be doing what you are doing because it is fun, and if you are not having fun and this is no a job for you like the pro drivers, then you need to ask yourself what the fuck are you doing wasting your time doing something you hate.
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Old 03-04-2012, 05:48 AM   #18
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Exactly they are clubs responsibilities.

But clubs getting together and giving each other a helping hand to provide better facilities and more help/training for newbies would be a good thing.
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:46 AM   #19
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I like SlowerOne's post. Most specifically the concept of utilizing what ROAR already does and taking those tools to create the orginazation that would carry out the responsibilities you are outlining whilst maintaining a certain level of relevence to an already existing body and community that surrounds it. It is far easier, efficent and effective to take what somebody else has already proven and modify or improve it rather than wipe the slate clean and start anew.

As the old saying goes... it's cheaper to keep her.
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:36 PM   #20
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Default Connecting Clubs.. Building a Network

This is what i mean, we need to connect close states to enhance the racing experience! If we can really develop an inter-club league where travel to clubs whether in-state or to states nearby can truly exist! This is what I'm thinking a governing body to help build a club level interstate league! No tracks don't have to close, no hobby stores don't have to close if we come together and make this happen.... we can talk about the bad and thats fair but lets try to focus on developing something that can last....

I say we make levels of racing:

On Road 17.5: (any make)
0 - 1.5 yrs experience - A Class

1.5 - 3 yrs experience - AA Class

3.1 - unlimited class - AAA Class

Same for 13.5 and open modified.

Will also follow the same for VTA just 21.5 only (any make)

This will allow those trying to get in to the sport a chance to learn but also feel competitive, i talk to newbies and they always say they may not come back and i ask them why? They tell me they feel they can't get it right or feel as though they can't race so they leave... thus no more track fees no more hobby store trips.....

WE HAVE TO TRY I ask that you submit ideas and true constructive input on forming this... This is and was not intended in anyway to put ROAR down, just to help save something i love and invested a lot of capital like all of you!
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Last edited by BlackStarRacing; 03-04-2012 at 12:37 PM. Reason: correcting spelling
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:15 PM   #21
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My input...

Let VTA be what USVTA works so hard for, 25.5 turn motors. It's working. Besides, if you trully want to focus on bringing back the first time racers, you NEED to have a class that encompasses easily controllable cars. If newbies don't like the slower speeds, they're not there to race, they just want a place to run a fast car. Sometimes a good salesman at the track is just what the doctor ordered, and I don't mean somebody selling parts.
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:17 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by BlackStarRacing View Post
This is what i mean, we need to connect close states to enhance the racing experience! If we can really develop an inter-club league where travel to clubs whether in-state or to states nearby can truly exist! This is what I'm thinking a governing body to help build a club level interstate league! No tracks don't have to close, no hobby stores don't have to close if we come together and make this happen.... we can talk about the bad and thats fair but lets try to focus on developing something that can last....

I say we make levels of racing:

On Road 17.5: (any make)
0 - 1.5 yrs experience - A Class

1.5 - 3 yrs experience - AA Class

3.1 - unlimited class - AAA Class

Same for 13.5 and open modified.

Will also follow the same for VTA just 21.5 only (any make)

This will allow those trying to get in to the sport a chance to learn but also feel competitive, i talk to newbies and they always say they may not come back and i ask them why? They tell me they feel they can't get it right or feel as though they can't race so they leave... thus no more track fees no more hobby store trips.....

WE HAVE TO TRY I ask that you submit ideas and true constructive input on forming this... This is and was not intended in anyway to put ROAR down, just to help save something i love and invested a lot of capital like all of you!


Couple questions:
What about offroad people that want to get into racing with a box stock Short Course or similar kit? Where are they left? Why would you try to go against the successful 25.5 USVTA that is growing in most areas and use 21.5 (if do do limited gearing it makes more effort to tech the cars, which requires more time and more people....) 25.5 is unlimited gearing (less tech and speed can be just as fast... good beginner class because most everyone uses the same things and therefore can get help) and a few motors can be used which keeps the new/better motor every week fad down.

I understand what you're trying to do, but I see a few other issues with you classes as well. What about a racer who has between 0-1.5 years experience and gets good enough to spank even AA racers?

I honestly wish you good luck, and hope you can figure something out. While I don't like all of ROAR's rules, I think they are a good baseline and might as well be used. Promoting Club groups is the best thing the hobby could do. Otherwise, you are in a field running your car by yourself and going to a race once and being discouraged.
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:39 PM   #23
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Default Helping to build on VTA

I only want to help clubs become more united, and if someone can drive with the big boys then please go ahead! Im trying to give those the chance to race with drivers of their skill level to build confidence in them...its like JV, give them time on the track with people like them to build it up!

As for off road, I want the same thing... I want clubs to become circuits and work together.... this is the intention wether its running USVTA, On-Road and OFF Road to build relationships.... ill be honest the tracks here to do much how about a NASCAR type of season utilizing all local tracks.... these types of ideas is what we need so please add ideas......

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Originally Posted by oceanhighz View Post
Couple questions:
What about offroad people that want to get into racing with a box stock Short Course or similar kit? Where are they left? Why would you try to go against the successful 25.5 USVTA that is growing in most areas and use 21.5 (if do do limited gearing it makes more effort to tech the cars, which requires more time and more people....) 25.5 is unlimited gearing (less tech and speed can be just as fast... good beginner class because most everyone uses the same things and therefore can get help) and a few motors can be used which keeps the new/better motor every week fad down.

I understand what you're trying to do, but I see a few other issues with you classes as well. What about a racer who has between 0-1.5 years experience and gets good enough to spank even AA racers?

I honestly wish you good luck, and hope you can figure something out. While I don't like all of ROAR's rules, I think they are a good baseline and might as well be used. Promoting Club groups is the best thing the hobby could do. Otherwise, you are in a field running your car by yourself and going to a race once and being discouraged.
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:49 PM   #24
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If you want an interclub series, start by becomming a delegate at your local club and facilitating it. You do not need ROAR to do that, its a club level thing. Here in Brisbane Australia we have a very successful on road interclub series that runs between 5 or 6 clubs. In NSW they have another very successful interclub series, and non of this involve any Australian governing body other than for rulesets.

Even thought these interclub series are very successful, the majority of drivers who race at the clubs involved do not attent, for many people, racing is all about club level, and i put myself into that catagory too. For all the nice things that interclub, big events, state and national championships are, the club racer could not give too hoots about. For me, i object to paying 3 times the entry fee just to be told X part is not on the approved list for that race, or paying 3 times the entry fee just to come last and have 4 x 6 min races. Screw that for $40-60 entry, for the club racer, there still needs to be value for money to get them to come and drive.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:07 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by RogerDaShrubber View Post
If you want an interclub series, start by becomming a delegate at your local club and facilitating it. You do not need ROAR to do that, its a club level thing. Here in Brisbane Australia we have a very successful on road interclub series that runs between 5 or 6 clubs. In NSW they have another very successful interclub series, and non of this involve any Australian governing body other than for rulesets.

Even thought these interclub series are very successful, the majority of drivers who race at the clubs involved do not attent, for many people, racing is all about club level, and i put myself into that catagory too. For all the nice things that interclub, big events, state and national championships are, the club racer could not give too hoots about. For me, i object to paying 3 times the entry fee just to be told X part is not on the approved list for that race, or paying 3 times the entry fee just to come last and have 4 x 6 min races. Screw that for $40-60 entry, for the club racer, there still needs to be value for money to get them to come and drive.
Not that things can't be better but most of the people I see at my track couldn't give two sh*%s about interstate series or sanctioning bodies. They are just looking for a fun diversion from the rigors of daily life. The guys and gals who are more serious have no issues finding the higher level races. It is a hobby, not Nascar or Formula 1. Having a good club that makes an effort to have a solid program and treats customers with respect is #1 IMO, not another sanctioning body that has 0 relevance to 90% of club racers.

ROAR has gotten blasted, perhaps at times fairly but I do think they are a well intentioned, and underappreciated group. The fact that I've seen, in the three years I've been in RC, a number people proposing alternatives to ROAR but when it comes time for implementation...nothing, indicates that ROAR either isn't doing that bad a job or people quickly realize what a time consuming and thankless job it is. I can only imagine how many times a person who has been in this hobby for decades has seen the same scenario. While I don't agree with everything ROAR does, I do, after spending some time working as a volunteer at my local track have a better appreciation for the difficulties of making decisions that may not work for everyone but hopefully are the best for the majority. Having a little skin in the game gives a lot of perspective. Admittedly, there are other guys in my club who do much more but all the same I am pretty much done with R/C due to the fact I see no end to the same six or seven guys doing all the work, and the inequity of the situation has embittered me to the hobby. I wonder how many people on RCTech have done anything for their club past paying an entry and skating as soon as the program was over, leaving the clean up, track builds, admin to someone else? How many have used the excuse that they have other things to do not considering that the people that do show up have sacrificed their own personal plans to maintain a track for other people to race on? How many of the same actively whine on RCTech or Hobbytalk about why things aren't better? Personally I see this as a bigger threat to the hobby than lack of national leadership.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:57 PM   #26
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Admittedly, there are other guys in my club who do much more but all the same I am pretty much done with R/C due to the fact I see no end to the same six or seven guys doing all the work, and the inequity of the situation has embittered me to the hobby.
This is no different than any other aspect of life that envolves a group of people doing something side by side. Heck, I find myself bitter at work because I see the same 5% of the staff that go the extra mile everyday while the remaining are happy to do just enough to maintain a job. At times you sort of get fed up with it but you're basically left with a decision. Do you continue to be the better member of the team because that's the kind of person you are or do you sink to the lower level and do the minimum because you can? It's fellas like you that allow fellas like me to have a great time for 10 hours on a Saturday. I'm not going to make excuses for why I'm not helping set up the track during the week or anything else I'm not helping with but I'm fairly confident that not everybody who skates quickly is unappreciative of the hard work and time that you guys put in.


Back to topic...


What I'm getting out of this thread is basically something that is already happening. There are already several regional racing series' in existance and it takes the kind of cooperation that the author is speaking of to make happen. I can't speak of other areas of the country and quite frankly I can't speak from experience about it around here since I've not yet participated in those events but there are 2 regional series here in the midwest. That seems like a pretty healthy group of clubs to me. Honestly I'm really at a loss here. Blackstarracing, in one thread you want to organize a new governing body and in another you're looking for tips for your onroad because you're new to the scene... Are you serious? You want to reinvent the wheel but you havn't even yet learned how to roll.
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:40 PM   #27
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This is no different than any other aspect of life that envolves a group of people doing something side by side. Heck, I find myself bitter at work because I see the same 5% of the staff that go the extra mile everyday while the remaining are happy to do just enough to maintain a job. At times you sort of get fed up with it but you're basically left with a decision. Do you continue to be the better member of the team because that's the kind of person you are or do you sink to the lower level and do the minimum because you can? It's fellas like you that allow fellas like me to have a great time for 10 hours on a Saturday. I'm not going to make excuses for why I'm not helping set up the track during the week or anything else I'm not helping with but I'm fairly confident that not everybody who skates quickly is unappreciative of the hard work and time that you guys put in.

To your point, I get your analogy but in your scenario everyone is still getting compensation whether the work gets done or not. At a volunteer club track nobody is getting paid, in fact people are losing time and money just driving out to get things done. Their choice to do it but in the long run it is hard to sustain without others rotating in or pitching in. Nobody is obligated to do anything more than come out and have a good time. The track never gets off the ground with out that. My frustration is with the ones who do nothing but talk but wait for someone else to do the work. I should have been more clear in what I said and apologies if you thought I was singling you out. Quite simply, IMO volunteer or non-profit tracks need more help at the local level, not better representation at the national level. Anyway, I've stunk this thread up enough. Outta here.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:21 AM   #28
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Honestly I'm really at a loss here. Blackstarracing, in one thread you want to organize a new governing body and in another you're looking for tips for your onroad because you're new to the scene... Are you serious? You want to reinvent the wheel but you havn't even yet learned how to roll.
Maybe he just doesnt like loosing and wants to stack the rules in his favor?

Quote:
I say we make levels of racing:

On Road 17.5: (any make)
0 - 1.5 yrs experience - A Class

1.5 - 3 yrs experience - AA Class

3.1 - unlimited class - AAA Class
Judging by what he is wanting as racing classes, i may just be right.

Personally i treat my club racing like a game of golf, in golf you are not really playing against other players, it is you verses the course and whoever plays the course best wins. I race my RC exactly the same, it is not me verses 9 other racers, it is me verses the track. I could not care if i come last or first, if i have a close race with someone or get wiped by the National Champion. I am there to have fun and the "RACING" against other people is in some ways a distraction to that.

In my younger days i raced motorcycles for sheep stations, as i got older i did it because i enjoyed it, to make up numbers as they say, and now that my body is too busted up to race motorcycles, i race RC for fun and to make up the numbers. As for awards and trophies, i got a wall full of those from real motorsport that i could not care less about, so why would i care about thing like that in RC.
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Old 03-05-2012, 04:35 AM   #29
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I could not care if i come last or first, if i have a close race with someone or get wiped by the National Champion.

i race RC for fun and to make up the numbers.

As for awards and trophies, i got a wall full of those.
+1

After 16/17+ years of r/c, for me, I share the same mentality.

I don't race for attention, trophies, or to set out with the mentality of win at all costs. Heck, even if my car is a pile of parts at turn 1, I am still not angry - even if its a hack that caused it?

Why? Whatever happens, happens. You cannot undo the past.

Every racer has to have a certain degree of being laid back about r/c, or you are not having F U N.

If that involves smack talk in the pits how your car can bench race faster than the guy sitting next to you and he or she is laughing about it, cool.

Or if it involves any conversation involving the club getting a smile from the racing or anything outside of r/c (and its of good nature) then great, DO IT.

As for the OP.

All I will say is don't try to fill a gap if the gap isnt filled in the right way, you'll loose a bunch of effort, time and $$$ for something you put your sole in to.

Although a forum such as rctech can be a good way to gain information, it really needs to channeled into what your local community of racers want.

If they want ROAR, you are facing the gale before you even try walking through it.

If they want something else, you got to channel your efforts into that to make it work - but not only that, you have to net the newcomers too to make things expand.

Not everyone will view rules the same way, IMO you are giving yourself a hard time trying to create a new organisation.

Creating an interclub series would be much easier, depends what you want to achieve...
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Old 03-05-2012, 04:57 AM   #30
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Personally i treat my club racing like a game of golf, in golf you are not really playing against other players, it is you verses the course and whoever plays the course best wins. I race my RC exactly the same, it is not me verses 9 other racers, it is me verses the track. I could not care if i come last or first, if i have a close race with someone or get wiped by the National Champion. I am there to have fun and the "RACING" against other people is in some ways a distraction to that.

In my younger days i raced motorcycles for sheep stations, as i got older i did it because i enjoyed it, to make up numbers as they say, and now that my body is too busted up to race motorcycles, i race RC for fun and to make up the numbers. As for awards and trophies, i got a wall full of those from real motorsport that i could not care less about, so why would i care about thing like that in RC.
After 18 years in RC I have a similar approach.

I race against myself, my aim is to make my car go faster every run but it is no fun pulling over constantly to let cars whcih are a heaps faster through and finishing 10 laps down.

I also like racing against other cars, whilst I don't mind winning for me there is nothing better than going toe to toe 2-10 inches away from another car lap after lap. I don't mind if this is pos 1-2 or last and second last and I find most of the time there is someone I can race against.
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