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Old 01-12-2005, 10:23 PM   #76
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We need to make sure we can separate our goals of making the elite racers happy AND making the newbies happy.

RTRs are great to get people into the hobby. Of the small percentage who decide to stick with it, they will eventually get a higher end kit.

After a 15 year break from RC, brushless got me back into it. Thank you Novak, for having the slightest bit of vision and sticking to it.

I too, don't quite understand how 4 cell vs 6 cell is dumbing anything down. I think 4 cell would probably move the machine-driver equation toward the machine side, so driver would become less important.

For me, the best racing that separates the best drivers from the best is where the cars are overpowered, they don't have very much traction, the track it tight and the race is short enough so batteries are not an issue. I think going 4 cell would make batteries MORE of an issue (unless you shorten the race).

But that kind of racing is hard and frustrating for the newbie. Newbies need slow, cheap, easy to operate cars so they can concentrate on driving, not fighting the car.

Somebody hit the nail on the head when they said something about racing go-karts at Daytona. The track has to be sized to the performance of the car, or visa-versa. If you can hold the thottle open for more than a second, the track it too big for the car, IMO.
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Old 01-12-2005, 10:32 PM   #77
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Default Re: Let me take a wild guess.

Quote:
Originally posted by imjonah
Let me take a wild guess. Because it might be nice if more people joining the hobby than leaving it.

I have been racing now for 14 months.
My impression so far

Racing a remote control car is inherently a lot of fun.
(Every time I go to a parking lot race it attracts people like a magnet)

The RC establishment and the Industry as a whole conspires to wring every ounce of joy and fun out of RC Racing and replace it with frustration, difficulty and expence.

If I had not made up my mind at the beggining that I was not going to let all the BS defeat me, I would have quit long ago.

The crap you need to go through for three 5 minute heats and 5 minute main is really incredible.
You my friend are a person who enjoys conquering the unkown and made your dad proud knowing you didnt grow up to be a punk!
Attitudes like this is what a person whos parents pushed them to be better do. Imjonah mind me asking if your older then 27?
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Old 01-12-2005, 10:59 PM   #78
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Unfortunately I think imjonah's commentary on the state of RC racing is spot on. This is supposed to be fun. But it is, unfortunately, a constant battle of the latest and greatest. I wish the machine-driver equation could somehow eliminate the machine portion and focus solely on the driver.
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:10 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by GordonFreeman
Unfortunately I think imjonah's commentary on the state of RC racing is spot on. This is supposed to be fun. But it is, unfortunately, a constant battle of the latest and greatest. I wish the machine-driver equation could somehow eliminate the machine portion and focus solely on the driver.
Thats why they invented net video gaming. You dont even have to leave the house or get dressed. Nothing more level and playe oriented than that!
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:16 PM   #80
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Yup, that's pretty fun, but for the hacker and spammers. But even that can be effected by equipment, video card, ping time, ect...

Chess might be the ultimate mono a mono. No excuses. "But my chess piece was sticky!".
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:21 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by GordonFreeman
Yup, that's pretty fun, but for the hacker and spammers. But even that can be effected by equipment, video card, ping time, ect...

Chess might be the ultimate mono a mono. No excuses. "But my chess piece was sticky!".
Gordon how many people you suppose play checkers and never move on to play chess?
Alot because they dont want to learn and motivate them selves to try! Why? Because its to hard ! The enter tab and a flash of an error doesnt happen when playing real life chess!
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:28 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by GordonFreeman
Unfortunately I think imjonah's commentary on the state of RC racing is spot on. This is supposed to be fun. But it is, unfortunately, a constant battle of the latest and greatest. I wish the machine-driver equation could somehow eliminate the machine portion and focus solely on the driver.
Because it's not about the driver. That's why its called competition where we race to beat each other. If you and your buddies want to run all teh same stuff and eliminate the car (try and get the same setup) then do it, but there's a reason why Ford tries to out do Chevy. We get better stuff when there is competition and the desire to beat the other guy or other team. RTRs sell, and people learn how to fix them. I bet if you did a survey most people start with an RTR. I built my first kit in 6th grade and I had my friend help me. I've also had help from a hobbyshop, but eventually I learned. I didn't buy a kit 350Z because I want to learn how to fix it.

We all don't have to do it "the old way" it's not always the best way.
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:30 PM   #83
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It is hard, very hard. And I, like imjonah, have chosen to stick it out for awhile. But I think many newbies are going to be turned off by the amount of effort required (from a mechanic standpoint) to be competetive. You have to be a expert motor tuner, an expert in chassis set-up, knowledgable about the electrics part (battery charging-discharging) the money to field all of this AND then finally you can worry about being a good driver.

What are my choices if I want to race RC and just worry about driving? If I had unlimited funds, my choice would be to just pay somebody to be my mechanic/tuner ect and supply me with a car that I never have to touch. He would put it on the track, I would would race for five minutes, he would take it off the track and I would go watch TV until the next heat. Unfortunately that is not realistic and I'm forced to do alot of work, just to race for a little while.
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:35 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by DerekB
Because it's not about the driver. That's why its called competition where we race to beat each other. If you and your buddies want to run all teh same stuff and eliminate the car (try and get the same setup) then do it, but there's a reason why Ford tries to out do Chevy. We get better stuff when there is competition and the desire to beat the other guy or other team. RTRs sell, and people learn how to fix them. I bet if you did a survey most people start with an RTR. I built my first kit in 6th grade and I had my friend help me. I've also had help from a hobbyshop, but eventually I learned. I didn't buy a kit 350Z because I want to learn how to fix it.

We all don't have to do it "the old way" it's not always the best way.
Good post derek. Its about beating the next guy! Competition.


Finding out something and trying it out! Which if you beat the guy because you made and effort to do it you accomplished a task! Which gives you alittle more cofidance, and better knowledge( skill ) .

Gordon that why its a hobby. Some people like me also do it for sport too.
Can have the cake and eat it
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:35 PM   #85
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Not about the driver? You walk down pit lane shouting that at any race event and see how far you get before you get punched out by a driver.

Each person on that race team thinks they're the most important peice, of course we know each of them is important, even the water boy and the umbrella girl.

Competition, right. What are we competing for? Best motor tuner? Best chassis set-up? Best driver? Unfortunately in RC racing, for the most part, it's all muddled together. It's who can be pretty good at all of the above.

I just want to drive, why is that such a bad thing? By the way I get harrased about this all the time, so I'm used to it.
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:39 PM   #86
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If I had unlimited funds I would race real cars.
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:41 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by GordonFreeman
Not about the driver? You walk down pit lane shouting that at any race event and see how far you get before you get punched out by a driver.

Each person on that race team thinks they're the most important peice, of course we know each of them is important, even the water boy and the umbrella girl.

I just want to drive, why is that such a bad thing?
Its not as long as you dont force it on to others making rules to slow them down because you cant figure it out on your own, or dont understand the guy helping you!
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:52 PM   #88
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Yea, but I don't want to slow anybody down. I said we need to make the cars overpowered, undertractioned, tight track and short enough race to make sure batteries don't play into it. That emphisizes the driver factor. Throttle clamp racing is boring as hell (and a motor/battery war) to me. As anti-intuitive as it may seem slowing the cars down makes it more of a motor/battery war. Any time you are full throttle, it means you need more motor, less traction or a smaller track.

And by the by, set-up was very frustrating for me until I simply copied Blackstock's set-up off the internet, I gained 3 laps. That's a load of crap IMO, that set-up can make that much difference. I mean I have personally experience that a crap car is going to be 3 laps slower than a well set-up car. Take that out of the equation and we might get more newbies hooked instead of frustrated.

Sure there's kind of payoff of satifaction after that, but there was a hell of a lot of frustration that led up to that and many people might have just quit.

If they make a RTR that is well set-up and will drive without any bad habits and it will make the newbie happier, I'm all for it.
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Old 01-13-2005, 12:02 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by adamkerrnz
IMO, RTR's are fine for the basher and mabe the novice racer but i would be pretty annoyed if i saw a RTR racing against me in pro stock class and beat me : /
Ya know from a practical standpoint I strongly disagree with you. All technicalities aside, if some person can buy a RTR and win with it then why not? He's saving hundreds of dollars in upgrades and if he can beat someone in Pro Stock than shit..go for it.

However we all know that all factors considered that's hardly likely. But if he is capable of doing something like that than A.) you should reconsider your driving ability compared to his, and B.) I'm sure he'd be picked up and driving for Losi or Associated in a heartbeat because imagine the damage he'd do with a better car with a good setup and sponsored motors and batts.

Quote:
Originally posted by vtl1180ny
We should be racing 4 cell'd front wheel drive RC cars... Look at the cheesey bodies we run... Mazda 6... Stratus.... Alpha....
Not to outright change the subject but any REAL sports car was rear wheel drive not front wheel drive.
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Old 01-13-2005, 12:06 AM   #90
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Batteries will always play into it. It all depends how you want to gear it. Finding the gearing for a given track is just like tuning a motor, conditioning batteries, etc... Something you do to tune the car for a track.

But one thing I notices John is you actuall work harder trying to make some frankenstien brushless setup for your 1/12th (3 cell) than I do on motor maintenance for my brushed setup.

The begining of this season I never had a brushed motor, only had a brushless 5800. But the more I use them the more I love the brushed motors. When I run my brushless truck it just feels so.... Disconnected.

Racing is always, and will always be about those who want to work the most, pay the most, and focus the most on their cars. no spec class, hand-out, anything will ever change that. Changes in rules and new classes will just eventually be about who can exploit the rules where others cant. If all you want is mindless fun then competition isnt really the right place to be.
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