R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-12-2005, 12:34 PM   #16
Tech Elite
 
CypressMidWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 4,618
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
The whole "magic insert serach" thing is such a falicy it isn't even funny. Back when people were still learing how to get things going, yeah that could have cost a lot, but those days are well over. I have 3-4 inserts that I use on both carpet or asphalt and works really well.

Skip, if your lap times are dropping 1/2 second after only 10 runs, your setup is way off. .2 I'll give you, but not 1/2.
The insert search is still very much alive, I've heard discussion about airgap, insert density/rebound, etc. etc. If you're one of those guys that just copies what the fast guy at your track runs, then yeah, you just ask him, and bang, problem solved. but if you run a car that noone else in your area runs, you're pretty much on you own. NO fun, More expensive and UBER time consuming.
__________________
Team CRC, PowerPush, Access Race Place, US Indoor Champs, CD SUPERPRO, RK Designs, TxDSkingraphix, Cypress, Founder and lead instructor of the Ian Ruggles Negative Reinforcement Driver Training Program, enroll now.....
CypressMidWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2005, 12:37 PM   #17
Tech Champion
 
RCGaryK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 7,331
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

No, I do some experimentation, but overall I have an insert combo that works on just about any tire at any track at any temps
__________________
Site Content Specialist- Surface
HorizonHobby.Com

Horizon Hobby is on YouTube with hundreds of different videos! Visit us at
http://www.youtube.com/HorizonRCdotCom
RCGaryK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2005, 03:22 PM   #18
Tech Champion
 
robk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Macho Business Donkey Wrestler
Posts: 7,587
Trader Rating: 22 (100%+)
Default

Gary:
I watched Brian Jucha get ready for the 2001 Asphalt Nats. He was at RSJ (at that time Venture) for weeks looking for the right combo. This was only with Sorex tires , since they would be the spec tire.

His tire bill would make your eyes pop.

There's no way to have an insert that works every temp at every track, or even close to that.
__________________
A mutually re-enforcing cascade of failure

"Failior [sic] crowns enterprise." Robert Goddard

I-Lap Scoring Systems http://www.rclapcounter.com/
robk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2005, 03:37 PM   #19
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Oshawa, Ontario
Posts: 444
Default

At least inserts are a non-wear item... in that so the tires are worn out, you can still re-use the inserts.

At the club racing level... It will not cost a lot to find the optimum tires and insert combo, so this is not a concern.

So let me reword the initial post...

In a cost/hassle comparison for someone who only runs one track at the club racing level... how does foam and rubber compare?

Foam is only used in open class TC and 1/12th scale at the local track. 19T TC runs rubber. There are not enough guys to run open TC weekly. We have 2 classes each week, 19T TC and 1/12th. 1/12th looks like it would be a cheap class to get into.

How much work is involved in keeping foam tires up to stuff? How often do they require truing? How many runs do they last?


MartynD
MartynD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2005, 04:22 PM   #20
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 39
Send a message via AIM to Nick_Malinoski
Default

Assuming you are starting at 58-60mm for touring car and 1.65(ft)/1.85 (rear) in 12th, you should not have major issues with chunking. It is good practice to re-true the tires at least once every 8-10 runs (for a club level).

With my Touring Car, I started my foams out at 60 mm and got 4 weeks of racing out of them (before they became too small to have proper ride height). This is 6 cell mod touring car oval with low wind motors (you tend to get a lot of tire wear).

The size you need to cut them down to also depends on the rim size, it's all about side wall thickness, too much and the tires will chunk, too little and you only get a couple heats out of your tires.

I can't speak for rubber tires, but I would say 4 race weekends on a single set of foams is pretty darn good, only $7 a race on tires.

With my T-Spec, I just finished my 5th week of racing on my foams cut down to 60mm, and they have many more races left in them.

Nick Malinoski
Nick_Malinoski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2005, 11:00 PM   #21
JKA
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,000
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
No, I do some experimentation,
But I thought the "whole "magic insert serach" thing is such a falicy it isn't even funny".

I run Parma Cyan/magentas on Carpet, and GQ 40/37s on all asphalt/parking lot/concrete surfaces. Which brings me to a great point... the GQ foams are $8.99 a pair. Thats $17.98 a set. Nearly 2 sets for the price of one rubber set.

I'm not saying foams are better. That obviously is a very subjective view. But the question in the initial post was which are cheaper. I think you can't logically deny that foams are less expensive.
JKA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2005, 11:37 PM   #22
Tech Champion
 
RCGaryK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 7,331
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

It's not a magic insert thing or tire of the week deal like it used to be. By not being able to run on asphalt year round like the SoCal guys, there is some experimentation. Last year I experimented with 3 different combinations, and they all worked. One worked better than the other two and that's what I ended up running.

What are GQ tires? I'd be interested to find out. Here's how I justify saying for week in, week out racing foams are more expensive:

Jaco Foam Tires: $19.29 per pair per Tower Hobbies x 2
Tire Truer: $199-$399 depending on how high tech you want.

True those tires down to say 2.25". Now if you don't chunk a tire or have it pull off the rim I am sure you could get a good 3 weeks out of said tire, and I will give you that the foams with maintain pretty much the same traction throughout their useable life.

I'm not going to bring Spec tires into this....$25- $30 for a set of 4, they last forever, but they do slow down a bit and give up grip over time...

Lets take a Tamiya race as an example. Ok, for carpet you run A-Compound tires. $15.19 @ tower x 2 for front and rear. $6.49 for a set of white dish 0 offset rims, and $4.79 x2 for a set of HPI Inserts. you're at $46.45 for a set of 4 tires versus $38.58 for those Jaco's....but don't forget to ammertize the cost of a truer like I mentioned.....I can get 6-10 weeks of racing out of those tires on carpet before I feel that I would be considerablly faster with a brand new set. My roll out won't change, ride height, droop, etc.

You are more likely to chunk a foam than crack a rim on a rubber tire....

Batteries and motors become much more important with foam than rubber because every ounce of power NEEDS to go to the ground because foam is much more of a motor and battery war....


Now at a large event, if rubber tires are open I will give you that the cost is about the same or higher for rubber. It killed me to cut open 1 run tires at Nationals this year because new tires were .1-.2 faster and the car handled better. But for weekly club racing, rubber tires are cheaper in the long run.
__________________
Site Content Specialist- Surface
HorizonHobby.Com

Horizon Hobby is on YouTube with hundreds of different videos! Visit us at
http://www.youtube.com/HorizonRCdotCom
RCGaryK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 12:23 AM   #23
Moderator
 
Speedo's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,431
Default

The Integy automatic tire truer is about $250 after a Hudy arbor and carbide bit.

Speedtech and KT Hobbies both have Parma and Jaco foams for $14 a pair.

I honestly enjoy running foam a lot more than I did rubber. I think the price is very similar, I get about 1.5 days of racing out of a set of foams running mod sedan, and that’s about what I got running Sorex 24/20. I like the fact that foams are consistently fast throughout their life, and it is very obvious when they have no life left in them.

Josh
Speedo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 12:42 AM   #24
JKA
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,000
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
What are GQ tires? .....
.....Jaco Foam Tires: $19.29 per pair per Tower Hobbies
Check out GQ foams here... http://www.rctexas.com/
(The only bad thing about GQ is the ugly orange rim.)

Jaco foams and Parma Foams can be had NUMEROUS places for $14 or $15 per pair. Plus if you just want single shore foams you have Fast tires, Ellegi, Twister, etc. Most of these are less than $11 per pair and I've seen some as low as $7.50/pair on sale.
All of these tires perform well, with slight variances between the brands.

This is why foam is cheaper... legitimate competition amongst Foam Tire manufacturers. The rubber tire market may have a hand full of companies involved, but we all know which ones are the legitimate race worthy rubbers.

We could talk all day about the benefits of each type... like you mentioned about foams and the never ending droop/ride height maintainence. I could add that gluing tires is the largest waste of time in RC aside from loading and unloading on raceday. But we shouldn't really go there because this thread is about which type is less expensive. Even with your Tire truers for all analogy I would still say Foams are cheaper... and I would add that you need to start racing with me... everyone at the track can use my truer free of charge.
JKA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 01:19 AM   #25
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Newville,Pa
Posts: 2,152
Trader Rating: 7 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
It's not a magic insert thing or tire of the week deal like it used to be. By not being able to run on asphalt year round like the SoCal guys, there is some experimentation. Last year I experimented with 3 different combinations, and they all worked. One worked better than the other two and that's what I ended up running.

What are GQ tires? I'd be interested to find out. Here's how I justify saying for week in, week out racing foams are more expensive:

Jaco Foam Tires: $19.29 per pair per Tower Hobbies x 2
Tire Truer: $199-$399 depending on how high tech you want.

True those tires down to say 2.25". Now if you don't chunk a tire or have it pull off the rim I am sure you could get a good 3 weeks out of said tire, and I will give you that the foams with maintain pretty much the same traction throughout their useable life.

I'm not going to bring Spec tires into this....$25- $30 for a set of 4, they last forever, but they do slow down a bit and give up grip over time...

Lets take a Tamiya race as an example. Ok, for carpet you run A-Compound tires. $15.19 @ tower x 2 for front and rear. $6.49 for a set of white dish 0 offset rims, and $4.79 x2 for a set of HPI Inserts. you're at $46.45 for a set of 4 tires versus $38.58 for those Jaco's....but don't forget to ammertize the cost of a truer like I mentioned.....I can get 6-10 weeks of racing out of those tires on carpet before I feel that I would be considerablly faster with a brand new set. My roll out won't change, ride height, droop, etc.

You are more likely to chunk a foam than crack a rim on a rubber tire....

Batteries and motors become much more important with foam than rubber because every ounce of power NEEDS to go to the ground because foam is much more of a motor and battery war....


Now at a large event, if rubber tires are open I will give you that the cost is about the same or higher for rubber. It killed me to cut open 1 run tires at Nationals this year because new tires were .1-.2 faster and the car handled better. But for weekly club racing, rubber tires are cheaper in the long run.



Dude, avoid tower at all costs!!!! WWW.SPEEDTECHRC.COM Jaco's and TRC's are $13.99.... then goto WWW.Teamintegy.com get the manual truer for $139..... now let's see once you get to 7-8 sets of foams the truer has paid for it's self.... and your savings start adding up.... remember I buy a truer once you buy rims forever.... and my mounted foams still cost less than your unmounted, insert, and glue free rubber tires.... not to mention I can true those foams down in 5 minutes.... try glueing those rubbers in under 5 and tell me what they look like!!! HAHA RCDRIVER GARY just got his fingers glued into his hair...or worse now his fingers are glued to his...... all I can say is ouch!!!! ....LOL


BTW: I like racing either/or whatever the rules allow/call for.... But I will say for slower spec style racing (mambuchi, tamiya classes) rubber tires will probably be cheaper in the long run, but prostock or open mod... foams will most likely run away....


However all of this is a moot point because he's asking about 1/12th scale foam and I must add the point that 4 cell 1/12th scale foams will last much longer than any TC foam, and possibly even rubber TC.....
__________________
G's RC Raceway- Best off-road track on the east coast...period!!!

Pitman for Team Dallas Austin...
IMPACTPLAYR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 09:23 AM   #26
Tech Champion
 
RCGaryK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 7,331
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

I referenced Tower just becuase their prices are at the same or slightly lower than most LHS's. I agree that I would use Steve @ Speedtech most times over tower. I'll have to check out GQ tires when nitro sedan racing starts in the spring.

Dude, gluing tires is soooo easy that you should be able to glue one side of a set of 4 tires in 5 minutes. Get an RPM Tire Jig, Losi Blue label CA & Rubber bands and you're ready to rock and roll. And as far as gluing things together, are you talking about gluing myself toooooooo......my....self....

And again, my rubber tires will never, ever chunk....
__________________
Site Content Specialist- Surface
HorizonHobby.Com

Horizon Hobby is on YouTube with hundreds of different videos! Visit us at
http://www.youtube.com/HorizonRCdotCom
RCGaryK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 09:37 AM   #27
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 2,446
Trader Rating: 13 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to David Alberico Send a message via Yahoo to David Alberico
Default

Foams were a bad answer to a problem that was simply out of control. Foams are way cheapier than the rubber tire guessing game, but it opened new problems because now you need awesome motors and batteries. and lets not forget about brushes since you will be cutting that 7 turn every 1 or 2 runs.

I give a thumbs up to handout premounted rubber tires at big races. That's pretty much the only way to control cost on rubber tires.
David Alberico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 09:49 AM   #28
Tech Elite
 
vtl1180ny's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Wrong Island
Posts: 4,963
Default

Rubber tires are good for one thing... Grabbing a couple of beers, a couple of buddies, heading out to a big open parking lot and drive till you break something....
__________________
I still lurk....
vtl1180ny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 10:42 AM   #29
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: MI
Posts: 462
Default

You can slant the whole cost thing either way. Like anything else in racing performance has a lot to do with what you're willing to pay for. Personally, I would have spent the same amount on tires last season regardless of what I ran (foam or rubber).

The biggest thing to consider when you ask what is better is the surface. If the track is built on a temporary parking lot, then normally rubber tires will be better/cheaper. If the track is dedicated to racing and is treated enough to have good traction, foams are the way to go.
Unregistered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 11:47 AM   #30
JKA
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,000
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Honestly , the difference in price (currently) is minimal so long as people don't get caught up in the infinite combinations of rim/insert/rubber for rubber racing. Foam keeps getting cheaper though.

And I don't buy in to the whole "foam tires create a battery and motor war" idea. ANY car that handles realy well makes the motors and batteries seem more important. Are we in turn going to say that a good setup is "bad for the hobby"? If you want something that is hard to drive because you think that "levels the playing field" concerning Batts and motors then just start a class that uses water in the shocks, has a minimum weight of 17lbs 3.7 oz, and uses AMC eagle bodies exclusively.

Gary - The GQ tires are phenomenal for Nitro. I found them to wear a bit faster than Jaco or Fast tires, but the rim is much stronger. Plus at $9 a pair you can't go wrong. We started using them on electric as well... just cutting the rear widths down to equal the fronts.
JKA is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FOAM TO RUBBER 32819toon Electric On-Road 7 07-22-2008 08:49 PM
foam or rubber? civiceg Electric On-Road 18 04-27-2007 04:59 PM
Foam or Rubber? pokpok Indonesia Racing 12 04-08-2004 11:41 PM
Foam Vs Rubber fastolfart Australian Racing 66 07-09-2003 04:04 PM
foam or rubber Skid Marks Northwest Racers 65 02-27-2003 11:14 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 01:59 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net