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Old 07-23-2005, 11:51 AM   #361
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I use the batman with my 3300 NiMh stick packs and see numbers that are reasonable when compare to my side-by-side packs. I can't do a direct comparsion, since I use the batman after I race (not with a fully charged pack), and for the stick packs I run 19t and for the side-by-side I run either stock or mod. Also the battery ages are different.

One point of confusion seems to be with respect to the MaH rating. I believe the cell manufacturers, along with most discharges, measure that as taking a cell, placing a discharge rate on it, like 30amps, then performing averaging over time until the cells reach a cutoff .9 volts.

So when you alter any of this, you can come up with different MaH rating. Also there seems to be questions of the 30 amp discharge is really 30 amp over the entire discharge period, i.e. does it fluctuate depending on the voltage.

With the batman, if you look on the back of the box, it shows that the discharge is not linear. It discharges at 35 amps, then stops and waits (letting the cells cool down).

So in this case the cell can recover some during this cooling period. That is one reason why I like the batman over a pure linear discharge, it stresses the cells when they're fullly charged as well when they are partially charge. Take dead-shortening, you are stressing the cells at 0 volts.

So back to the original example using a more traditional measure, i.e. lights. You find that if you let your pack rest after taking your measurement, then you go back, you see that the cells have recovered and you can get a little more MaH out of them. This is what the batman is doing over it's dischage cycle.

Due to this, I also take the run-time with a grain of salt. When I race, I'm applying a constant load over the entire race (more or less), while the batman during it's cooling off period is placing no load on the battery.

With regards to the comment that the batman recycling, I found that I had to resolder my alligator clips. What was happening is at the end of a discharge, when it would go into maintaince mode, the batman would recycle itself, i.e. display the welcome message, and start the count-down. At the end of the count-down, it would then recycle itself. So after resoldering the clips, this problem dissappeared.

For me 61mOhm sounds pretty crappy. Would a bigger number make you happy?

Also the 6.5 volt sounds crappy as well. No wonder that pack is not very good. I get around 7.4~7.2 for my 3300's, and that is after I used them for 4 or 5 minutes.
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Old 07-23-2005, 02:30 PM   #362
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Here are the data that I got out of my crappy 2400NiCd
1st cycle = 468s 7.43v 104j 4161mAh 61.5m
2nd cycle = 541s 7.40v 120j 4812mAh 64.0m
Both cases the battery was fully charged with 2.5A (1c) for no more then 2400mAh
I don't belive a pack that has accepted 2400mAh can release more then 4000mAh
As whell on the second cycle intead of getting a better Ri, I got a worts one
So, maybe this BatMan is not designed for NiCd
With my Sanyo 3000 both my attemp to get number have been abnormally terminated in the final phase while BatMan was doing maintenace.
I will try to replace the original crocrodille with a new Male Deans, making more practical for my stick packs.
I just got my BatMan so I have still not tested during races, manly I was testing this device with my worste packs for better understend how this BatMan can provide advantages.

So far I'm quite disappointed !

e_lm_70
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Old 07-23-2005, 02:56 PM   #363
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The BatMan manual state:
"Displayed runtime is calculated to be equivalent to a conventional costant 35A discharge"

My data and other posted data shows clearly that this is wrong:
315s 7.47v 70.6j 2800mAh 22m (old Sanyo 3000)
468s 7.43v 104j 4161mAh 61.5m (Conrad 2400 1st)
541s 7.40v 120j 4812mAh 64.0m (Conrad 2400 2nd)

All time and capacity are associable to 32A discharge not 35!
also my first test with a 1 week unused pack show unrealistic Ri !!!

I'm wandering how many other fake data this BatMan is producing!!

e_lm_70

PS: The first BatMan that I have seen, it was during a race, the owner of this BatMan told me that he was just using as regular discharger after the race and he never take care to look the numbers done by his BatMan. He didn't say, but I can guess that he knows already that reads BatMan numbers is a waste of time
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Old 07-23-2005, 03:42 PM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70
The BatMan manual state:
"Displayed runtime is calculated to be equivalent to a conventional costant 35A discharge"

My data and other posted data shows clearly that this is wrong:
315s 7.47v 70.6j 2800mAh 22m (old Sanyo 3000)
468s 7.43v 104j 4161mAh 61.5m (Conrad 2400 1st)
541s 7.40v 120j 4812mAh 64.0m (Conrad 2400 2nd)

All time and capacity are associable to 32A discharge not 35!
also my first test with a 1 week unused pack show unrealistic Ri !!!

I'm wandering how many other fake data this BatMan is producing!!

e_lm_70

PS: The first BatMan that I have seen, it was during a race, the owner of this BatMan told me that he was just using as regular discharger after the race and he never take care to look the numbers done by his BatMan. He didn't say, but I can guess that he knows already that reads BatMan numbers is a waste of time
i had inquired with Erik on lengthening my wires. and he said this will throw off the calibration of the Batman and give inaccurate results. my guess would be this is happening for a number of reasons.

1. you have longer wires on your stick packs.
2. you are using deans plugs
3. stick packs are not directly soldered to each other like side by side packs. the only soldering is at the ends of the stick pack. the cells in the middle are just touching or have a very small amount of solder holding them together.

all these elements factored in together might be throwing the calibration within your Battery Manager out of whack.

alternatively, instead of just cycling your batteries. have you ran them in your car at a track? if your calibration is off, the performance of the batman might still be working. you never know, you might feel the performance difference in your packs. just a thought.

you can contact Erik Jonk, he's the owner of spintec. he'll be more than happy to answer any and all of your questions. if you feel you have received a defective Battery Manager. Contact him directly and he will gladly assist you.
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Old 07-23-2005, 03:46 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebiki
i had inquired with Erik on lengthening my wires. and he said this will throw off the calibration of the Batman and give inaccurate results. my guess would be this is happening for a number of reasons.

1. you have longer wires on your stick packs.
2. you are using deans plugs
3. stick packs are not directly soldered to each other like side by side packs. the only soldering is at the ends of the stick pack. the cells in the middle are just touching or have a very small amount of solder holding them together.

all these elements factored in together might be throwing the calibration within your Battery Manager out of whack.

alternatively, instead of just cycling your batteries. have you ran them in your car at a track? if your calibration is off, the performance of the batman might still be working. you never know, you might feel the performance difference in your packs. just a thought.

you can contact Erik Jonk, he's the owner of spintec. he'll be more than happy to answer any and all of your questions. if you feel you have received a defective Battery Manager. Contact him directly and he will gladly assist you.
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Old 07-25-2005, 05:30 AM   #366
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Wow, lots of posts here in a couple of days.... will try to answer them all

Ghostfit, yeah we will make you famous by placing a newsflash on our website if you make it to the 9999 cycles

Rayhuang, we have not tested the effects of not using the Battery Manager every cycle. You will have to make a compromise between the time you have available and how often you can use the unit. I would advise to connect your packs as soon as possible after racing and as long as possible. You can also do it next day. Also we have no such data available, I expect it has the greatest effect on older packs.

Tsuiyuen, yes I recommend using the unit after every run. This will condition it for maximum performance and lifetime and will not hurt your cells. I heard some good results of also discharging it again just before charging, seems the packs accepts a little more charge by doing this.

E_lm_70, thanks for all your testing. Yes, as Hebiki said latest firmware version is 1.5. Sorry to hear you get weird results. I am not sure what can be the problem. I know that changing the cables, longer wires or other connectors give different readings. As you already mentioned, a switching current of the heavy 35 amps gives effects other than just those of resistive loading. It's fine if you change cabling, but remember comparing to others results will be difficult. One other thing is that especially the IR reading is very sensitive to the circumstances. For instance: environment temperature, pack temperature, how many times did you peak the pack, how long ago did you charge the pack, charge current, how did you race the last time with the pack, etc etc. The key thing is consistency, do your testing always the same procedure!
One other thing could be the solderjoint between the cables and the crocodile clips. As mentioned before, unfortunately we had a small batch with problems. Please check this by pushing up the insulation and visually check the joint. Pull the cables and see if something moves.
Finally, if you really think something is wrong with your unit I would be happy to take a look at it and sent you a new unit. Please email me at [email protected]

Deforest, thanks for the explanation. You're right, because of the cooling down periods you can not really compare to conventional 'hard' linear discharging. Sorry for the clips... we have now solved that for sure (although that doesn't help you very much ).

Hebiki and Mr. Shookie, thanks for the confidence
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Old 07-25-2005, 08:29 AM   #367
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So far I just test 2 packs a 2400NiCd and a 3000NiMh.

With the 2400NiCd, I was always been able (5/5 tests) to get the full ciclye and get end result.
The 3000NiMh, did a full cycle only once, the first time, when cells have been charged 1 week before.
All other attemps (3/3) did fail in the maintenace mode.

I don't belive it is a contact or bad soldering.

Could it be that during maintenance one of the cell is pusshed too much down (maybe in reverse) and then the BatMan don't have enough voltage for continue its operations ?

If it is the case ... shouldn't be the case that BatMan should avoid overdischarge a pack ?

e_lm_70

P.S: After a failed cycle I have measured the voltage of the pack, immediatly after the failed maintenance, and it was still over 7V ... around 7.1V with a load of 10mAh discharge !
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:38 AM   #368
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Here is where I feel you need to understand, The BATMAN was designed for ladder style soldered packs not stick packs. Stick packs have very strange maintance needs that can range from the insain to the completely retarded from what I have heard. I know that your results may have occured do the fact that the BATMAN is not calibrated for stick packs and by using it with stick packs you are going to have problems for sure as the cuts offs and maintance modes I believe that the CPU is looking for thresholds and being that there are many circumtances that cause your errrors you might consider sending in your unit and like Erik stated he will be happy to send you a new one. What more could you ask for. Maybe Erik might start doing a stick pack BATMAN soon after the 4 Cell BATMAN and the ever intreging ICC Charger....(HINT HINT ERIK) LOL just messign with you Erik I know you are working very dilagantly. Can not wait....LOL

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Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70
So far I just test 2 packs a 2400NiCd and a 3000NiMh.

With the 2400NiCd, I was always been able (5/5 tests) to get the full ciclye and get end result.
The 3000NiMh, did a full cycle only once, the first time, when cells have been charged 1 week before.
All other attemps (3/3) did fail in the maintenace mode.

I don't belive it is a contact or bad soldering.

Could it be that during maintenance one of the cell is pusshed too much down (maybe in reverse) and then the BatMan don't have enough voltage for continue its operations ?

If it is the case ... shouldn't be the case that BatMan should avoid overdischarge a pack ?

e_lm_70

P.S: After a failed cycle I have measured the voltage of the pack, immediatly after the failed maintenance, and it was still over 7V ... around 7.1V with a load of 10mAh discharge !
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Old 07-25-2005, 08:04 PM   #369
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More hint, hint, hint...
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:27 PM   #370
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Ive been reading alot on this thread, but i still dont quite get what the batman does to the cells, how exactly does the cell react to decrystalization? and what is seen as an improvement to your pack after using your batman for a given period of time? i have a gfx so id like to know how some of your numbers changed on a cycle

Thanks
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:59 PM   #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kartermdb
Ive been reading alot on this thread, but i still dont quite get what the batman does to the cells, how exactly does the cell react to decrystalization? and what is seen as an improvement to your pack after using your batman for a given period of time? i have a gfx so id like to know how some of your numbers changed on a cycle

Thanks
hey karter..ill try to answer your question as best as i can.

imagine the plumbing/pipes in your house.. eventually gunk develops right.. then you get your pipes clogged with hair, lint and all kinds of garbage. then you need liquid drano clean out or rooter to drill out the garbage....so the water draining flows freely again.

imagine that same analogy.. but with your batteries. as you use them, the different chemicals and what not inside the cell start to crystallize. so the energy (the water) in your cells are released as fast (free flowing drainage) your internal resistance raises (garbage, hair, lint in the pipes) and you lose the performance behind your packs. (lower runtime, lower voltage, etc)

the Spintec Battery Manager has something called "Coolflex" technology and it discharges your batteries in bursts at 35amps. this does two things. 1. it will keep your battery cooler and 2. it will help decrystallize the cell. i cant explain more, because Erik's "Coolflex" technology is patented and protected.

the more you use the Battery Manager, the more your cells get decrystallized. Eventually, you'll start to regain some performance back (lower IR, increased runtime, increased voltage). I cant exactly say it'll perform just as good as the first charge, BUT it will help keep your cells perform longer.

hope that answers your question
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Old 07-25-2005, 10:01 PM   #372
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I have only just received my BatMan but it is giving me some strange results. Firstly, it is taking aroud 4 hours to complete the discharge of a 3300 pack after a 4 minute 540 race. The instructions say 2 hours but this may be after a mod race, I'm not sure.

The only pack I have had time to discharge from a full charge was an IB 3600. This took over 4 hours as I had to leave it after that time. The figures it gave for that pack were: 7.56v, 166j, 6532Mah, 44 Ohm IR.

The capacity figure is the concern. Am I doing something wrong or is it possible there is a fault with the discharger.

Your advice would be appreciated.

Jeff
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:04 AM   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Mackem
The only pack I have had time to discharge from a full charge was an IB 3600. This took over 4 hours as I had to leave it after that time. The figures it gave for that pack were: 7.56v, 166j, 6532Mah, 44 Ohm IR.
The numbers from BatMan are wrong !
I'm getting 4800mAh from a fully charged NiCd2400 ... so your IB3600 result are inline ... I would say real mAh is the value divided by two ...

As well the seconds and mAh number are not related each other by a 35Amp factor as stated in the manual ... but by a 32Amp factor.

Based on my calculation the BatMan is discharging the Pack at around .7Amp ... so after 5min stock race with a 3700mAh pack ... it could take a while to remove the 1500m or 2000mAh left in your pack!

e_lm_70

P.S: If it would act as stated in the manual with a real 35Amp discharge (in bursts) ... considering that 1 BatMan second is 25 real second ... this batMan should discharge at 1.4Amp in avarage !

P.S: As far I have been able to understand this BatMan is intendet to decrystallize the cells ... the numbers on the BatMan have limited value ... also for comparison purpose they look wired !
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Old 07-26-2005, 08:20 AM   #374
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Thanks Hebiki, that helps alot, but i do have one more question. does this help new cells as well?
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Old 07-26-2005, 08:32 AM   #375
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Yes, the numbers may be wrong. From this weekend I had a fully charged GP3300 pack. Took a 3531mA charge. Discharged the fully charged pack on my BATMAN and it stated capacity was 4435. So, yes the numbers are wrong.

But WHO CARES. That same pack I was able to charge to 3531mA was only getting a 2900mA charge before I got my BATMAN. I was ready to throw out my older packs, but this little device saved them.

Thats my $0.02.
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