4 Cell Sedan Racing
12-28-2004, 04:00 PM
#121
Originally posted by AdrianM
Kufman - By the way...Reedy was looking for an EE with lots of advanced knowledge in magnetic fields and their manipulation. I don't know if they filled the position yet.
Kufman - By the way...Reedy was looking for an EE with lots of advanced knowledge in magnetic fields and their manipulation. I don't know if they filled the position yet.
I could be wrong but...As far as the conversation goes in here... I think 4 or 5 cell racing might be worth trying in TC... with the state our tire situation (poor rubber tires [ sorry adrian] ) anything we can do to relieve the strain on the tires is going to help make racing better/cheaper... maybe these new compound tires that you guys are talking about will be better... I just know from racing at SoCal (where it can be harder on your tires than most tracks) CS 27's just don't cut it.... They work well for about 2 laps then overheat... reducing the weight in the car will help this...maybe 4 to 6 laps?
It will also be interesting to see if people will be able to run 4 and 5 turn motors successfully on 4 or 5 cells...
12-28-2004, 04:16 PM
#123
Originally posted by AdrianM
Derek - We all know how you feel about spec tires and I respect your right to express your opinion. Luckily most racers(Pros and Privateers), your contributing editors and your publisher disagree with you!
FYI, Take Off has a new tire...The RP series. The makers of the top spec tires in the world never stopped developent.
Derek - We all know how you feel about spec tires and I respect your right to express your opinion. Luckily most racers(Pros and Privateers), your contributing editors and your publisher disagree with you!
FYI, Take Off has a new tire...The RP series. The makers of the top spec tires in the world never stopped developent.
Again, spec tires on a local level are great. What my lazy empolyees (including me) and lazy racers like about spec tires is that they don't have to test.
I'll point out again that in Japan where it's open tires they are developing tires. Here where the spec tires rule the land at Nationals and now Worlds we haven't seen a new TC tire from any of the largest tire manufacturers.
I like SPEC tires for club tracks if they want to run it, but in places where people are being paid to test better product and that doesn't happen it is INSANE...proven by NO TIRE DEVELOPMENT!!!!!!!!!
12-28-2004, 04:20 PM
#124
Tech Apprentice
has anyone actually tested this at an organized event to see the actual lap/time differences between 4 and 6 cell?
12-28-2004, 04:21 PM
#125
Originally posted by AdrianM
XL - I was running 1/12th 4 cell stock a few weeks ago and I was lapping the local nitro guys. Why? They can't handle the power. 8 guys started only 2 cars were running at the end.
Regarding Motors...They are at the limits of materials and design right now. Two of the top motor guys on Earth (Reedy and Oscar Jansen) think this is good idea.
Motor limits don't work. The BRCA and ROAR are abandoning motor limits as they have found that with 10 and 12 you run them harder (more timing and bigger gears) than you would a 7 or 8 turn. The lower winds are actually in better shape after a run then 10 or 12 turns.
With a 6 cell open mod sedan we only have an advantage on smaller tracks. If you have a good nitro driver on a big track he will always pass you on the straight.
The testing has already been done. Mark Dawson tested 4 cell in practice at the Worlds. With a 7x1 he was only ~2 sec slower over a 5 min run with 4 cells compared to his 6 cell time.
XL - I was running 1/12th 4 cell stock a few weeks ago and I was lapping the local nitro guys. Why? They can't handle the power. 8 guys started only 2 cars were running at the end.
Regarding Motors...They are at the limits of materials and design right now. Two of the top motor guys on Earth (Reedy and Oscar Jansen) think this is good idea.
Motor limits don't work. The BRCA and ROAR are abandoning motor limits as they have found that with 10 and 12 you run them harder (more timing and bigger gears) than you would a 7 or 8 turn. The lower winds are actually in better shape after a run then 10 or 12 turns.
With a 6 cell open mod sedan we only have an advantage on smaller tracks. If you have a good nitro driver on a big track he will always pass you on the straight.
The testing has already been done. Mark Dawson tested 4 cell in practice at the Worlds. With a 7x1 he was only ~2 sec slower over a 5 min run with 4 cells compared to his 6 cell time.
I can't believe I almost missed this one. How has testing been done. If I look at the results from the worlds the above mentioned driver was 3 laps off the pace with 6-cells. That's a long way away from the A-Main and not to far away from the DNF M-Main.
-- 1/10 Touring Mod – I2 Main --
Pos Car Laps time name
1 6 22 5:03.26 Mark Dawson Mark Dawson
2 4 22 5:03.46 Tony Vredenberg Tony Vredenberg
3 3 22 5:05.35 Mikael Nilsson Mikael Nilsson
4 0 22 5:05.66 Loic Etienne Loic Etienne
5 2 22 5:12.10 Chee Yong Chee Yong
6 8 21 5:00.77 Andrea Nerone Andrea Nerone
7 7 21 5:08.57 David Bowser David Bowser
8 5 20 5:06.07 Juraj Hudy Juraj Hudy
9 1 19 4:16.82 Furman Walker Furman Walker
10 9 13 3:02.02 Alexander Lopez Alexande Lopez
-- 1/10 Touring Mod - A Main --
Pos Car Laps time name
1 1 24 5:07.36 Marc Rheinard Marc Rheinard
2 4 24 5:09.17 Masami Hirosaka Masami Hirosaka
3 2 24 5:11.05 Daisuke Yoshioka Daisuke Yoshioka
4 3 24 5:11.41 Atsushi Hara Atushi Hara
5 7 23 5:00.85 Andrew Moore Andrew Moore
6 0 23 5:04.40 Juho Levanen Finland
7 8 23 5:04.41 Matt Francis Matt Francis
8 6 23 5:06.46 Billy Easton Billy Easton
9 9 23 5:12.37 David Spashett David Spashett
10 5 22 4:44.16 Surikarn Chaidejsur Surikarn Chaidejsur
Oh, I forgot Adrian give me a call tomorrow!!!
12-28-2004, 04:28 PM
#127
Tech Regular
Theres one track in Toronto I do 99% of my racing at. Most of the racing that happens there is rubber tire TC, with some 1/12 ove rthe past couple years.
About 3 hours down the highway, there is another track that went pretty much exclusively 1/12 a few years back. Around teh same time, my local track changed the carpet.
Fast forward to today. The carpet at the 1/12 only track is still in perfect shape. And just yesterday, we changed teh carpet at my home track.
For teh track owner, increasing the life of a $3-4000 carpet would seem to be high on the list of priorities. Someone said earlier we need more good tracks, maybe if the cars didnt rip up the surface so much, track owners could put more money into improving the rest of the facility.
About 3 hours down the highway, there is another track that went pretty much exclusively 1/12 a few years back. Around teh same time, my local track changed the carpet.
Fast forward to today. The carpet at the 1/12 only track is still in perfect shape. And just yesterday, we changed teh carpet at my home track.
For teh track owner, increasing the life of a $3-4000 carpet would seem to be high on the list of priorities. Someone said earlier we need more good tracks, maybe if the cars didnt rip up the surface so much, track owners could put more money into improving the rest of the facility.
12-28-2004, 04:35 PM
#129
...they have been toying around with eight minute races ....[/B]
We've got so much battery capacity right now! I started back when all the Sanyo's we used were yellow, and the most capacity was 1200mAh. We still ran 8 minute 1/12!
Running 8 minute 1/10 TC would likely cause a slightly slower pace, and hopefully a more controlled driving manner from the average Joe. This would be an effort to make the racing more enjoyable, but goes against the topic of this thread, making racing cheaper.
12-28-2004, 04:47 PM
#130
Derek - Dude... that was a low blow! Mark is a good driver that had a very bad week. Regardless of what main he qualified in he could do a 22 5:03 on 6 cells and a 22 5:05 on 4 cells. Thats not a big diffrence.
R/C Paperboy - Scotty Ernst the owner of S&N Track side in WI says he cant tell a diffrence in carpet wear between rubber or foam tires. He runs both at his track. Stockton R/C Raceway runs the same carpet that had at the 2001 Carpet Nats. It had a year of rubber tire racing on it in 2001 and now its 3 years older and only now needs to get replaced.
Low cars and traction compounds have more effects on carpet wear than rubber versus foam tires.
Greg - 8 minutes is easy in stock, not too hard to make in 19T but Mod racers all want to go as fast as they can. The means special motor winds and REALLY good batts. Longer races will cause a big split between the haves and have nots. If your 420sec pack looses 20 sec now its no big deal. In 8 min racing losing 20 sec means its time for new batts.
R/C Paperboy - Scotty Ernst the owner of S&N Track side in WI says he cant tell a diffrence in carpet wear between rubber or foam tires. He runs both at his track. Stockton R/C Raceway runs the same carpet that had at the 2001 Carpet Nats. It had a year of rubber tire racing on it in 2001 and now its 3 years older and only now needs to get replaced.
Low cars and traction compounds have more effects on carpet wear than rubber versus foam tires.
Greg - 8 minutes is easy in stock, not too hard to make in 19T but Mod racers all want to go as fast as they can. The means special motor winds and REALLY good batts. Longer races will cause a big split between the haves and have nots. If your 420sec pack looses 20 sec now its no big deal. In 8 min racing losing 20 sec means its time for new batts.
12-28-2004, 04:49 PM
#131
Originally posted by AdrianM
Derek - Dude... that was a low blow! Mark is a good driver that had a very bad week. Regardless of what main he qualified in he could do a 22 5:03 on 6 cells and a 22 5:05 on 4 cells. Thats not a big diffrence.
R/C Paperboy - Scotty Ernst the owner of S&N Track side in WI says he cant tell a diffrence in carpet wear between rubber or foam tires. He runs both at his track. Stockton R/C Raceway runs the same carpet that had at the 2001 Carpet Nats. It had a year of rubber tire racing on it in 2001 and now its 3 years older and only now needs to get replaced.
Low cars and traction compounds have more effects on carpet wear than rubber versus foam tires.
Derek - Dude... that was a low blow! Mark is a good driver that had a very bad week. Regardless of what main he qualified in he could do a 22 5:03 on 6 cells and a 22 5:05 on 4 cells. Thats not a big diffrence.
R/C Paperboy - Scotty Ernst the owner of S&N Track side in WI says he cant tell a diffrence in carpet wear between rubber or foam tires. He runs both at his track. Stockton R/C Raceway runs the same carpet that had at the 2001 Carpet Nats. It had a year of rubber tire racing on it in 2001 and now its 3 years older and only now needs to get replaced.
Low cars and traction compounds have more effects on carpet wear than rubber versus foam tires.
12-28-2004, 04:56 PM
#132
Originally posted by AdrianM
JKA - The main problem is we are roasting motors. ... They have come as far as materials science and design can take them.
JKA - The main problem is we are roasting motors. ... They have come as far as materials science and design can take them.
Plus to say that motor technology has been taken as far as possible is absurd... especially from someone as involved with the sport as you are.
I think the big debate hear has more to do with one's view of progress. Derek (and I to a certain extent) believe that the factory racers should run the newest cutting edge equipment... be it motors, tires, or batteries. This is the way I see to make the most significant progress within RC. The nearly unavailable super hot grippiest tire that wins the worlds in the hands of a few sponsored racers one year will be the spec tire for local level events the following year.. and ideally will be obsolete for the Pros since they'll be testing NEW products.
Many of you appear however to view progress as limiting the effects technology has on racing and in some cases (high mah batts) using the advances to "level the playing field" through means of decreased expense and increased drivability among other things.
Thats why I'll say it again... my idea for eliminating stock racing (god knows it didn't work out like intended) and having 4cell mod and 6 cell mod as the class separations gives the best of both worlds. Of course no one has even acknowledged this idea so perhaps I'm clueless! lol I'll try 4 cell mod Wednesday night and report back then.
12-28-2004, 05:06 PM
#133
I'm all for longer races
Originally posted by AdrianM
Greg - 8 minutes is easy in stock, not too hard to make in 19T but Mod racers all want to go as fast as they can. The means special motor winds and REALLY good batts. Longer races will cause a big split between the haves and have nots. If your 420sec pack looses 20 sec now its no big deal. In 8 min racing losing 20 sec means its time for new batts.
Greg - 8 minutes is easy in stock, not too hard to make in 19T but Mod racers all want to go as fast as they can. The means special motor winds and REALLY good batts. Longer races will cause a big split between the haves and have nots. If your 420sec pack looses 20 sec now its no big deal. In 8 min racing losing 20 sec means its time for new batts.
There will always be a split between the rich, sponsored, and the informed, leaving the average Joe in their dust. That is not a variable in racing, that's a constant. (sadly) What's important in a hobby is having fun doing it. Since we can't seem to equilize the racing, let's at least provide more racing time.
With regards to the importance of batteries; For almost 20 years I have watched the batteries grow without the race lengths increasing. Why is that? I want to race more, read that as "I want longer races". I want to have a race strategy, whereas currently most of us are simply sprinting to the finish. This is understandable in TC stock and 19T, but TC modified should not be a full throttle affair. Modified should be a game of limited "fuel", and at 5 minutes this class is more a matter of who gets into Turn 1 first. Ugly!
12-28-2004, 05:14 PM
#134
Tech Regular
Originally posted by AdrianM
R/C Paperboy - Scotty Ernst the owner of S&N Track side in WI says he cant tell a diffrence in carpet wear between rubber or foam tires. He runs both at his track. Stockton R/C Raceway runs the same carpet that had at the 2001 Carpet Nats. It had a year of rubber tire racing on it in 2001 and now its 3 years older and only now needs to get replaced.
Low cars and traction compounds have more effects on carpet wear than rubber versus foam tires.
R/C Paperboy - Scotty Ernst the owner of S&N Track side in WI says he cant tell a diffrence in carpet wear between rubber or foam tires. He runs both at his track. Stockton R/C Raceway runs the same carpet that had at the 2001 Carpet Nats. It had a year of rubber tire racing on it in 2001 and now its 3 years older and only now needs to get replaced.
Low cars and traction compounds have more effects on carpet wear than rubber versus foam tires.
12-28-2004, 05:19 PM
#135
Originally posted by DerekB
Well use a better example next time. How you wrote it he would have been 2 seconds away from winning.
Well use a better example next time. How you wrote it he would have been 2 seconds away from winning.