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Old 12-28-2004, 08:37 AM   #46
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Speed xl, trust me, 12 turn limits are not the answer. In the UK we have just got rid of it and hopefully will have a better year in 05.

I might actually give 4 cell a go at a club race some time, could be interesting.
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:39 AM   #47
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After reading this whole thread and feeling like it went way off based. Let us get back to the point. I have been running in the 12th TC class for some time, with a 9T D6 motor geared perfectly it out guns any motor >12T in 10th scale TC. I have only replaced my brushes twice this last season and cut the comm twice. Now before I was racing 10th TC mod motor I would replace the brushes and cut the comm after each race day. I believe it when Mike Reedy says the added power plays havic on your motors.

I am not saying lets dumb down RC all I am saying is for guys who are on a tighter budget and still want to enjoy this HOBBY get the chance before there wallets empty and there wives leave them. It isn't always about YOU and YOUR needs. Think beyond your selfishness. I think it would be great to include a 4 cell class and also include those who have the (Weird little Bodies with huge Tires) I think it looks fun. Since I have been running my Yok Mini I have let a total of five guys drive it and a total of five guys either went out and got one or they are gettign one when there wallets get full again.
We can not forget about little Billy and his Dad who wants to get into this HOBBY but cannot fork out 3 c-notes just to get going. I think you all can see this isn't trying to bring RC down it is trying to Expand it sideways. Get as many people involved in it before it goes really back. Let us just say RC hasn't been the most popular Hobby up until recently. Lets keep it that way.
Thank you all for listening to this rant
it is now over,
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:44 AM   #48
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XL - I was running 1/12th 4 cell stock a few weeks ago and I was lapping the local nitro guys. Why? They can't handle the power. 8 guys started only 2 cars were running at the end.

Regarding Motors...They are at the limits of materials and design right now. Two of the top motor guys on Earth (Reedy and Oscar Jansen) think this is good idea.

Motor limits don't work. The BRCA and ROAR are abandoning motor limits as they have found that with 10 and 12 you run them harder (more timing and bigger gears) than you would a 7 or 8 turn. The lower winds are actually in better shape after a run then 10 or 12 turns.

With a 6 cell open mod sedan we only have an advantage on smaller tracks. If you have a good nitro driver on a big track he will always pass you on the straight.

The testing has already been done. Mark Dawson tested 4 cell in practice at the Worlds. With a 7x1 he was only ~2 sec slower over a 5 min run with 4 cells compared to his 6 cell time.
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:50 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Shookie
After reading this whole thread and feeling like it went way off based. Let us get back to the point. I have been running in the 12th TC class for some time, with a 9T D6 motor geared perfectly it out guns any motor >12T in 10th scale TC. I have only replaced my brushes twice this last season and cut the comm twice. Now before I was racing 10th TC mod motor I would replace the brushes and cut the comm after each race day. I believe it when Mike Reedy says the added power plays havic on your motors.

I am not saying lets dumb down RC all I am saying is for guys who are on a tighter budget and still want to enjoy this HOBBY get the chance before there wallets empty and there wives leave them. It isn't always about YOU and YOUR needs. Think beyond your selfishness. I think it would be great to include a 4 cell class and also include those who have the (Weird little Bodies with huge Tires) I think it looks fun. Since I have been running my Yok Mini I have let a total of five guys drive it and a total of five guys either went out and got one or they are gettign one when there wallets get full again.
We can not forget about little Billy and his Dad who wants to get into this HOBBY but cannot fork out 3 c-notes just to get going. I think you all can see this isn't trying to bring RC down it is trying to Expand it sideways. Get as many people involved in it before it goes really back. Let us just say RC hasn't been the most popular Hobby up until recently. Lets keep it that way.
Thank you all for listening to this rant
it is now over,
Thanks,
Stephen <><
Take Care All & GOD Bless

Stephan thats where box stock comes in do honestly think that reducing cells will reduce the cost for little billy! NO IT WONT! because it will right back at where it started. Its great at the start and it will get out of hand. If the main reason of doing this is for little billy then start a box stock class like there was when I started racing in 1986.
If you think four cell is the answer think about when 12 scale went 4 cell it almost killed the class (yes touring had some to do) and now its slowly making an appearance. Guys will stop racing electric all together because it doesnt have that rip.
Fine some pro guys drove the cars with four cell , IF YOU THINK WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE BUYING BATTERIES FOR VOLTAGE NOW WAIT TILL THEN!
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:52 AM   #50
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i have read this thread and others with this disscussion on.
i have heard of 4 cell oval but its not popular here in the uk if they race it at all [?].
what iam worried about is surely if you race with less cells runtime wuill be reduced?i say this because the motors will be pulling the same amount of amps but because of the lack of voltage wont it pull more amps?
please can someone explain a 'novices guide to 4 cwell racing'as iam really facinated about it.i really like the idea of the handling advantages.
all i want to know is;
how is runtime effected over 5mins.
what turn arms work best.
do you go down in the turns or up.
how do you gear it compared to 6cells?
how is the handling changed?thank you
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:55 AM   #51
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adrian thats great for the nitro guy we dont run electric cars on nitro tracks all the time and we are not nitro guys.

we know 12 scale is faster on the small tracks we run on, come on get for real the car whieghs half the whieght.
if you had real nitro racers driving against you on a real nitro track you know they would have run you over!
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Old 12-28-2004, 09:04 AM   #52
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I think there are 2 conversations here:

1. 1/12 Sedan: Runs 4 cells...I have the Xray, fun but there has to be some time in developement of the class and the cars offered. All 1/12 sedans out right now are just shrunk 10th TCs. We have a few at our track, but popularity isn't as big as 12th pan or 10 TC due to new equipment purchases.

2. 1/10 Sedan: I would be very interested in doing some testing with the concept...sounds interesting and would go a LONG way to promote the hobby. I don't necessarily think you have to do away with the 6 cell class, maybe just offer a 4 cell class and see which becomes more popular.

That does mean race directors would dilute the classes and have more clases with less racers, but i think it is worthwile to take a look at.
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Old 12-28-2004, 09:11 AM   #53
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sorry i was talking about 1/10th
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Old 12-28-2004, 09:33 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
People don't see or want to admit that turnout is down at tracks around the country. I personally blame the expansion of foam tire racing and the cost of tires, and I see bringing down the cell count from 6 to 4 cells to be a great idea.
Gary: Oddly, attendance at our local tracks actually INCREASED when the y moved from rubber tire sedan to foams, and has continued to grow. I think that's simply because the cost of racing on foams is significantly less for the average racer, It can be more expensive for the novice, (chunking tires), but for anyone of average or better driving skill, it's generally significantly less expensive.
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Old 12-28-2004, 10:19 AM   #55
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hey kansas I see you guys got a poll going!
Thats a great Idea maybe we can have shane do the same here and see what the
mass population thinks.

poll right now stands at 25% intrested in trying it and 75% saying not intrested!
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Old 12-28-2004, 10:23 AM   #56
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some points:

for the purist racer, it matters not what the platform is, just that it be level for his/her competitors. - please, let's not get into the $ argument. that will exist regardless of the number of cells we are powering our cars with.

additionally, human evolution cannot move at the pace of electronic development. if left alone this discrepancy will grow and we will need to create a new class for beginners. why not implement something now that will curtail some of the spending on all levels?

however, 1/12 scale lap times are already faster than their sedan counterparts. i don't know that i would like to see this difference grow.

some questions:

does this mean that stock foam racers will not have to lift at all around the track? as it is, the lifts are brief and not many in number. will the two cells and lighter car completely remove the element of throttle control from stock foam?

will it matter if competent stock racers are now running 19t?

and could the removal of this element be beneficial to beginners?
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Old 12-28-2004, 10:27 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by CypressMidWest
. I think that's simply because the cost of racing on foams is significantly less for the average racer
I disagree with this premise, but that's just my opinion I guess...

Adrian is got the right ideas, and history is on his side. Again, just look at Oval and at 1/12th scale. Both classes could have been considered to be money/dyno classes in the mid-90's, and both classes suffered for it. The reason why sedans took off was the scale realism and the "relative" inexpensive nature of the class. Well the performance enthusiasts got ahole of sedan racing, and now it's the most expensive class to run. The thing that is funny to me is how some people will blast this before even trying it or seeing it in action. going to 4 cells single handedly saved both 1/12th scale on road and 1/10th scale oval. Oval still hasn't quite recovered to where it used to be, but it is a heckofalot stronger than where it was, on the brink of exstinction.
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Old 12-28-2004, 10:32 AM   #58
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4-cells is a terrible idea. If anything we should go to 8 or 10 cells and run 4/5 sub c cells with higher turn motors. The higher the voltage, the lower the current needed to achieve the same power. Since losses are proportional to the current squared, it doesn't make any sense to to lower in voltage and go higher in current. If we run more cells and draw less current, we don't need as big of cells to get the job done. There are several cells on the market that would work with this, the GP2200, the KAN 2000's, the Sanyo cp1700 and cp1300. All of which are 4/5 sub-c or smaller. Heck if you take this to an extreme, run gp1100's like the mini-t and rc18t. Take for instance the mamba brushless system, 4-16 cells and 25A continuous. Running 12 cells and 25 amps (assuming 1.1V per cell) is 330 Watts of power. The cells can't suport this forever, but even at 10A you still have 132 Watts of power. Brushless being 80% efficient or better, you would have 105W comming out of a tiny little motor. This may not work in a 1/10th scale car, but other brushless systems would at 1.10th scale. so could brushed systems. I know companies like novak and gm don't make good controllers anymore (more than 6 cells), but that is a very small reality in the rc world. To add to the pain, if you go down in voltage, brushed motors will be even less efficient than they currently are (<50%)!! I^2 * R is the problem. Lets use our brains and take this hobby in a better direction. Just my $.02
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Old 12-28-2004, 10:45 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedxl
this four cell battery thing is bogus!
the reason people are going to 12 scale is not because its cheaper because its easier to set up and maintanence is lower. And the amount of equipment to haul to the track is less. The growing amount of 12 scale intrest may be up north on carpet but its rather slow growing here.;

on the six cell side I dont feel the battery reduction is the way to go. They need to play around with motor materials and reduce the Number of winds again say down to 12t like in europe.

Damn if I will let a nitro guy out accelerate me!

If they decide to go 4 cell in sedan! your will be almost guaranteed a mass excidess of electric guys converting to nitro! why because of the speed, atleast in the parts of the country where nitro is popular and electric is 50/50 in popularity!
PW, how did I prove my oppposite point. The point is THEY ARE develping new compounds, for better or worse. There is ZERO tire development by any of the US tire manufacturers. I'm really for spec tires on a local level, but on the "Pro" circuits they do NOTHING.

The simple fact is the pros are racing for R&D and development of better stuff. They can restrict NASCAR and such because you can't go to the dealer and buy that car. In the day's where NASCAR had a production rule where you had to have a car available to the public there were NO restrictions. You watched which car won cause you could buy it. The same hold true with RC. You can buy what wins. We really don't care who wins a race more than wat wins.

PW Losi has three active off-road compounds and lots of new treads all the time. Same with Pro-Line. But what was the last touring tire they had? I know you guys are great at all the races helping out with Spec tires, but spec really isn't healthy for product development at all. It may be good for you guys, but that's because you import the tires (bring back the spokes!)
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Old 12-28-2004, 10:48 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by kufman
4-cells is a terrible idea. If anything we should go to 8 or 10 cells and run 4/5 sub c cells with higher turn motors. The higher the voltage, the lower the current needed to achieve the same power. Since losses are proportional to the current squared, it doesn't make any sense to to lower in voltage and go higher in current. If we run more cells and draw less current, we don't need as big of cells to get the job done. There are several cells on the market that would work with this, the GP2200, the KAN 2000's, the Sanyo cp1700 and cp1300. All of which are 4/5 sub-c or smaller. Heck if you take this to an extreme, run gp1100's like the mini-t and rc18t. Take for instance the mamba brushless system, 4-16 cells and 25A continuous. Running 12 cells and 25 amps (assuming 1.1V per cell) is 330 Watts of power. The cells can't suport this forever, but even at 10A you still have 132 Watts of power. Brushless being 80% efficient or better, you would have 105W comming out of a tiny little motor. This may not work in a 1/10th scale car, but other brushless systems would at 1.10th scale. so could brushed systems. I know companies like novak and gm don't make good controllers anymore (more than 6 cells), but that is a very small reality in the rc world. To add to the pain, if you go down in voltage, brushed motors will be even less efficient than they currently are (<50%)!! I^2 * R is the problem. Lets use our brains and take this hobby in a better direction. Just my $.02
Kuf you'll quickly learn that people don't want to hear stuff like that


EDIT and while I'm at it, why not brushless and Li-PO cells. More voltage, more runtime, lighter batteries,a nd no comm wear...but lets go slower. In fact I'm trading in my 350 since if I go to fast it will break
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Last edited by DerekB; 12-28-2004 at 10:55 AM.
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