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Old 12-27-2004, 11:09 PM   #31
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as far as oval and 4 cell goes... our 6 cell mod record was 42 laps.. a t the paved nats this summer we saw 4 cell mod go 44 laps....

one main reason is drivability. handling speed is one thing.. pushing a car to it absolute limits is another... the cars are not slower.. yes they have a little les rip, but top speed and better handling will outweigh the rip factor...

4 cell has turned oval into a tuning game.. it is no longer who has the best motor and batteries... you need to tune the chassis.. the difference between a good driving car and an awesome handling car is 2-3 laps, in 4 cell oval...

our track records are held by average guys with cars that dont lose any speed in the corners.. ie well tuned.. after a record we dyno the motor, with the tech process.. the last two records were motors under 60 on a fantom......

check out www.triclone.com this is our track. its the real deal as far as oval..

our tires also last 4 times as long.. we get almost a whole season on a set.. rather then 3-5 weeks with 6 cell.. motors last longer.. we dont break as many parts.. and we are just as fast when the car is dialed in right..
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Old 12-27-2004, 11:10 PM   #32
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Kil, you just proved my point again. Open tire rule and they test new tires. Pro-Line and Losi are the USAs biggest tire companies and yet....0 new tires in how many years? As opposed to off road which hasn't been infected with "Spec" tires at nationals too much yet. I see new tires and compound all the time.

Rules are good for some levels of racing...at the top rules stop development.
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Old 12-27-2004, 11:12 PM   #33
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Oh they joy of running slower...

Maybe they should slow down NASCAR and F1 so when they crash they don't break...

I'm going to call NERF tomorrow and see if they have a car I can run. What's the fun in not pushing to the limit? That's why we race. I could race a snail but it wouldn't be fun. We can go insanely fast and crash and laugh about it. I guess I'm a speed junky.
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Old 12-27-2004, 11:12 PM   #34
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I would have to agree with Gary on the 1/12 racing growing very rapidly this winter. We have many more racers running 1/12 than we do sedan for all the same reasons he listed. There are a couple of us going to test the 4-cell theory this weekend on carpet.
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Old 12-27-2004, 11:19 PM   #35
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1/12 scale always grows in the winter in the snowy states
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Old 12-27-2004, 11:42 PM   #36
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My point wasn't that 1/12 sedans are unpopular, its just that they are different and another class. I know there are reason they are unpopular other than just the number of cells. Everyone waits to see what others do before, time, money and effort are wasted. Like I said, I like the idea, it just isn't realistic. Finding a new set up, switching packs, etc. isn't that big a deal, its getting everryone to drop six cells and go to four; that just isn't going to happen. Hell, Betamax is better than VHS, but no one wanted to stick their head out (okay, maybe that's not the best example, but you get my point).
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Old 12-27-2004, 11:45 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
...now 1/12th scale is amongst the fastest growing classes around the country. Why? ... Racers simply began to realize that this was a viable and inexpensive alternative in comparison to sedan racing.
I'm not so sure thats accurate. Well.. the fast growing 12th class thing is accurate but the justification for such is not.

I'd venture to say the fastest growing sectors of RC (in addition to 12th) would be the Nitro classes. Any of em... pick one. I'd say particularly the 1/8th buggies.

My guess at why this is happening hinges more around drive time than expense as we all know even entry level 8th buggies are decent cabbage. People, myself included, love 12th and nitro because you run longer races... 8 min.... 10 min.... 30 minutes....

Couple in the fact that 8th buggies and 12th scales are pretty darn durable and you've found two fast growing classes that have one major thing in common... less wrenching and more driving. Theres your justifications....

All of that said... the only issue I have with 4 cell sedans that its seems like a waste of good technology. We must not ONLY limit racers when technology advances but we must make progress with our racing as well. If you don't progress then you either regress or become stagnant. I don't think RC needs any more of either of the latter options.
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Old 12-28-2004, 12:01 AM   #38
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4 cell in TC? YUCK! Sorry but I don't think that there are many positives to this other than a $15.00 or $20.00 savings on a battery that you run for a whole season? You really think that's gonna dramatically change anything?

Right now, the average 3300 GP battery weighs 13.7 ozs with shrink wrap and battery bars included. 2 cells weigh in at a whopping total of 2.28 0z's. This is not enough weight to revolutionize the handling of a TC. Alot of the TC's out there now have a side to side imbalance of at least that much weight and most guys don't even notice it on the track. Especially if you run foam tires.

I'm not trying to be negative but I think racing is about going fast and always trying to get more out of your car. If you goto 4 cells the fast guys will still be fast. But with stock being such a dominant class (and its not really that fast), they're gonna slow down and make the class less exciting. And costs will just be transferred to other areas to make the cars faster due to the lack of power available like lighter weight materials, stuff like that.

Maybe it has some validity for brand new racers but whether they are using 4 cells or 6 cells, getting used to this sport is learning to drive and setup cars to handle. Motor/Battery isn't where they should be concentrating their main efforts.
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Old 12-28-2004, 12:52 AM   #39
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If anybody remembers back to before oval switched from 6 to 4 cells, almost everybody refused to switch. I know when we first tried it at our track, there were only 2 of us willing to try it in practice. This is a big change, it will take time, but it is the right thing to do.

As far as not being able to handle the speed, I'm all for speed. I currently race 6-cell modified TC on a 75' x 35' carpet track. We run anywhere from 7 to 10 turn motor and they are ballistic! It's a ton of fun, but realistically much too fast for the track.

Most people in the novice classes and the newer drivers in stock are struggling with the speed and power of these cars. It is impossible for many people to slow their cars down while they learn to drive. Speed is addictive and it is easy to get. This translates into ugly races and broken cars. I've seen MANY drivers quit after only a week or two of racing due to frustration.

To compare this to NASCAR, just look at their motor rules from the old days.... unlimited cubic inches, unlimited carb size, just about unlimited anything. Now they are limited to 358 cubic inches and a 650cfm carb (I think). They are running faster on every track (except Daytona and Talladega) with less motor than they had 30 years ago.

Our technology has changed dramatically over the years. When I started racing we had 1200 mah batteries. Now we have 3300 mah with even bigger on the way. Our current stock motors are faster than the 17 turn modified motors of the early 90's. We are basically asking new drivers to begin their racing career in a modified class.

As was stated earlier, with some time spent learning setup for 4 cells, our TC's will be just as fast as they were with 6 cells, just not quite as quick. The lower weight will help not only with our speed, but with handling and durability. I think we need as many people as possible trying this to see what we can learn.
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Old 12-28-2004, 12:55 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by DerekB
1/12 scale always grows in the winter in the snowy states
True, but normally it's just the guys who are going to big races such as Cleveland and Snowbirds who bring them out a few weeks ahead of time to get them ready, then shelve them or sell them until the next year. This year it's weird how many "Average Joe's" are buying 1/12th scales. Like I said, at 4 tracks in the region the number of 1/12th scales have exploded. On many nights, 1/12th stock is the best attended class.

Quote:
My guess at why this is happening hinges more around drive time than expense as we all know even entry level 8th buggies are decent cabbage. People, myself included, love 12th and nitro because you run longer races... 8 min.... 10 min.... 30 minutes....
JKA, you just validified one of my other points:

Quote:
But it's not just the speed, it's the bang for the buck. Someone spends their hard earned race fee and can run for 5 minutes or 8. I don't know about you but more track time is better to me.
A lot of the racers who have gone Nitro racing in the summer are now running 1/12th scales doe to the inclimate weather. Come April or May the attendance will taper off as people head back outside. But for now, its good to see.
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:06 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by DerekB
Gary I'm sure you know my stance on "spec tires" in racing and how they stopped tire development.
Hmm...You better email Take Off about this. They didn't get that Memo and have been working on a new tire for the last two years. Its called the RP series. Its faster then the CS series but dosn't wear as well. More like the Sorex tires.
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:20 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by DerekB
Kil, you just proved my point again. Open tire rule and they test new tires. Pro-Line and Losi are the USAs biggest tire companies and yet....0 new tires in how many years? As opposed to off road which hasn't been infected with "Spec" tires at nationals too much yet. I see new tires and compound all the time.

Rules are good for some levels of racing...at the top rules stop development.
Derek, you just proved Kil's point again...LOL....Kil's post was stating to you that in Asia it's open tire where they are constantly testing new tires and yet, they are still running the same tires/compounds because they are better.

The companies supplying "spec" tires are not just sitting on their a$$, they are trying to develop new tires constantly to give us better performance, longer wear, etc etc each and every year (spec or open).....TakeOff has been working on a tire for 2 years and they just now released what they think is a better tire for all forms of racing, spec or open....You should have the new "RP Racing" tires in a few days.

As for Off-Road....I just raced off-road for the first time in 3 years and guess what, my 5 to 6 year old M3 Holeshosts were still the tire of choice. Better yet, the 2wd modified class was won with M3 squares fuzzies!!!! Those tires have to be close to 6 or 7 years old Where's the development????

Losi: still uses the same silver or Red compounds.
Proline: still uses the same R3 (been around for years, made it the market in the last 2) or M3 compounds.


As for the domestic tire companies....They will never have a competitive on-road rubber tire because of the strict laws in the USA that prohibit them from using certain chemicals that help produce dominate tires. I understand this is a problem in full scale racing tire development as well.
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:21 AM   #43
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this four cell battery thing is bogus!
the reason people are going to 12 scale is not because its cheaper because its easier to set up and maintanence is lower. And the amount of equipment to haul to the track is less. The growing amount of 12 scale intrest may be up north on carpet but its rather slow growing here.;

on the six cell side I dont feel the battery reduction is the way to go. They need to play around with motor materials and reduce the Number of winds again say down to 12t like in europe.

Damn if I will let a nitro guy out accelerate me!

If they decide to go 4 cell in sedan! your will be almost guaranteed a mass excidess of electric guys converting to nitro! why because of the speed, atleast in the parts of the country where nitro is popular and electric is 50/50 in popularity!
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:27 AM   #44
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Thank you all for your excellent opinions. I am pleasantly surprised at how warmly this idea is being received. I expected more opposition.

Dave Kurschner - Check you math. The max weight according to IFMAR for a 6 cell pack is 390g (6-63g cells + 12g for bars and solder) or 13.33oz. Each cell weighs 2.22oz. With 2 fewer cells you save 4.44oz in weight. Thus the 48.5oz (rubber) and 45.5oz (foam) min weights I suggested. 4oz is a significant reduction.

I also suggested the 27T be only a novice class as it will be slow. 19T would be the new stock class. Mod would stiff be really fast but with less rip/punch out of the corners. This increases driveability and allows racers to step up to mod more easily.

I am sure if 4 cell sedan takes off the motors would get optimized for 4 cell and within a year or two we would be back very close to 6 cell speeds...but at a lower cost and with better motor/tire life.
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:32 AM   #45
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oooh by the way the decrease in entries isnt because the cars are too fast its because there are to many choices in classes and the guys that want special treatment because they dont have the ability or drive to be better to go faster want it easy so they wont want to race a factory guy. those are the whiny cry babies that got picked on at school so they want their own special class!

lets get rid of some of the stupid classes that have been started because the manufactures created a car for play which someone said" hey there arent any fast guys here and I can win"

bring back box stock! for the newbies, make 19t the intermidiate class.
And mod will always be for the daring.
I like chasing Barry Baker, chris tosoline, matt franscis. Because I like a challenge and chasing the fast guy makes you better if your paying attention!
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