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Old 01-05-2005, 04:46 PM   #406
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Busch
If running 4 cell mod is the answer to the end of stock motors then I'm all for it.
Exactly. Me too.
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Old 01-05-2005, 06:01 PM   #407
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You must know some different novices than I do...because I can't count the times I've seen some kid who's never raced belly up to the counter and buy all the good stuff (or something approximating the good stuff)...because he wants to go fast. Then they try and race...and find out they're not allowed to or they have to race with the experts (BTDT) because they don't have a "stock" motor (and all the associated crap that goes with it.

I don't think "fun", "affordable" and "racing" have to be mutually exclusive. I have more fun racing Mabuchis with the TAOB guys than I do in Novice. It should be about having fun and being able to have good close racing. Maybe 4-cell brushless would be the answer.


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Originally posted by SammyXp
[B]Turbo Joe, regardless of the long term economical benefits - the initial cash outlay for a brushless system is still fair greater for a novice. Most novices do not dish out the hundreds extra for hot motors, high-dollar ESC's and motor lathes until they are well advanced in the hobby.
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Old 01-05-2005, 06:06 PM   #408
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Smash
Until the battery wars start up again and you are paying over $100 dollars a pack.
I'm not sure why battery wars would start up again due to a move from 7.2V -> 4.8V. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the big fight in the battery wars was when we barely had enough run time to make a four minute race. Now we've got plenty of run time for a 5 minute race, with a few minutes to spare.
Even with steeper gearing, with the decreased weight and lower power levels, run times should still be far more than adequate, shouldn't they?
As for voltage, that won't be any different than it is now. As a matter of fact, should it be even less significant? Since a 0.02V better cell results in an overall 0.12V increase with a 6 cell pack versus a 0.08V increase in 4-cell.
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Old 01-05-2005, 06:25 PM   #409
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Sorry Sammy, I was refering to the previous comment about extending the races due to battery capacity increases. I should have been more clear. Modified sedan pushes the envolope for runtime. Carpet places even more emphasis on that runtime. If you drive 1/12th scale modified, the drivers must conserve battery the wholerun and rarely ever are full throttle. It has been this way for years. Cars continually get better and can put down more and more horspower, motor builders continue to build faster and faster motors, and cell manufactures keep building better and better cells.

This is one huge circle which causes racing to continue to get more expensive. We as the racers and leaders of the racing community must at times interfere with this circle to keep things under control, otherwise R/C racing will die like slot cars.
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Old 01-05-2005, 06:42 PM   #410
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why 4-cell won't work:

at a basher level - they don't want slower, they want faster. my area is the epitomy of bashing. bashers aren't strapping 380's and 4-cells in their cars, their running 6-turn motors on 7 cells. they're not running cox .05 gas motors on 88 octane in their gas trucks, they're running nitro breathing big block flamethrowers on 30% nitro. breaking less by going slower is what fast people think bashers want. bashers want to go faster and break less.

at a sportsman level - with moderate ability in even a medium grip environment, 4c 19t/stock sedan is too slow. don't compare a 40ounce 2w direct drive foam tire oval car that makes 1 near-stop accelleration in a race with a significantly heavier 4wd vehicle that may have 2-3 hairpins to deal with per lap. the comparison is flawed. great this will do away with stock motors... hrmm, last time i looked stock was still by FAR the most popular class at a club level. why do we want to get rid of it again?

at a pro level it might work if the manufacturers/teams drive it, BUT you're still in the same boat as we are now in no time at all. first, we'll start seeing 4-5 turn motors replacing the 7-8's used now. next, we'll see new compound brushes which provide more power and increased wear to maximize performance at the lower voltage. then, we're going to see softer tires that heat up to running temp faster, and wear faster to stradle the line between usable traction and market viability based on product durability. next, we will see an increase in 4-cell prices, just like we see a 4-cell now for 44.99, where we see an equivelant 6c for 59.99. no biggie, they'll need less packs. unless you factor in that if they still happen to run offroad, you're either requiring them to resolder packs every race day, or forcing them to buy seperate packs for each.

i support anything that brings people into the hobby. i just see 4 cells as a negative for 98% of the community, and a positive for the other 2%.
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Old 01-05-2005, 07:15 PM   #411
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Understood, Jack

Basher/Sportsman/Pro argument - I feel breaks down as follows:

Basher - of course 4 cell doesn't make sense. That's why the title of this thread is 4 Cell Sedan Racing.

Pro - Even in classes where 4-cell is popular such as 1/10 pan car, the pros often still run 6-cell.

Sportsman is where this class has potential. With modified motors, a 4-Cell sedan will easily outperform a 6 cell stock car, with far better handling and better reliability. You have to admit, it is an intriguing concept.
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Old 01-05-2005, 08:04 PM   #412
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LEAVE IT ALONE!!!
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Old 01-05-2005, 08:11 PM   #413
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Joe
I have more fun racing Mabuchis with the TAOB guys than I do in Novice.
slow is fast who are these TAOB guys anyways?
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Old 01-05-2005, 08:13 PM   #414
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Hey Chris, how about seven cell mabuchi class
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Old 01-05-2005, 08:16 PM   #415
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie O
LEAVE IT ALONE!!!
Yeah, I wish they would have said that back in the early/mid 90's when all those crazy guys with 4wd sedans were running around LHS parking lots. What a crazy idea that was!
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Old 01-05-2005, 08:54 PM   #416
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Smash
Modified sedan pushes the envolope for runtime. If you drive 1/12th scale modified, the drivers must conserve battery the wholerun and rarely ever are full throttle.
If the races were longer, the motors would need to be a few turns higher, the drivers would need to conserve a bit more battery, and the overall speed would likely be a bit lower. Sounds like better racing to me.
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Old 01-05-2005, 10:34 PM   #417
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You guys are completely correct about not having 4-cell sport packs available. I'm not sure how much expense is included in actually manufacturing stick packs but I would assume that if ROAR changed the rule then matchers would start making 4-cell sticks. I can't imagine much cost to revamp that assembly process. I'm sure that if they were given an upcoming rule change 6 months in advance it wouldn't be a problem.

From what I've seen newbies are impressed with the speed of just about anything once they see it run. Because regardless of how fast it is, it's still faster than anything else they've ever seen.

I don't think the switch would convert many electric racers to gas either. Those that currently aren't involved in gas usually cite 2 reasons, either "it's to dirty" or "it's to much work". On top of that I'd say only about 10% of the country can actually run gas in the winter.
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Old 01-05-2005, 10:38 PM   #418
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Quote:
Originally posted by RTolle
I don't think the switch would convert many electric racers to gas either. Those that currently aren't involved in gas usually cite 2 reasons, either "it's to dirty" or "it's to much work".
Yuh DAMN RIGHT!!

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Old 01-06-2005, 12:17 AM   #419
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Quote:
Originally posted by RTolle
I don't think the switch would convert many electric racers to gas either. Those that currently aren't involved in gas usually cite 2 reasons, either "it's to dirty" or "it's to much work".
There is a 3rd reason - They break easier
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Old 01-11-2005, 03:09 AM   #420
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Smash
Sorry Sammy, I was refering to the previous comment about extending the races due to battery capacity increases. I should have been more clear. Modified sedan pushes the envolope for runtime. Carpet places even more emphasis on that runtime. If you drive 1/12th scale modified, the drivers must conserve battery the wholerun and rarely ever are full throttle.
Five years ago, when my club decided on 12 turn motor limit,I was racing with guys who used 2000 mAh cells and would always finish the race. The motors were warm after the race. Now those same guys are using 3600 mAh cells and dumping. We still have the same 12 turn limit and 5 minute mains. The difference lies in gearing, motor-timing, speed controls and brushes. Mostly gearing and timing. But now you can see that at the end of the race the guys are slowing down because the motors are too hot and starting to lose power. If you hold a finger on the motor as it comes off the track you'll burn it. The finger that is, not the motor, so don't use your own finger.

It doesn't matter how fast the motors are or how big the batteries. You'll always gear and time the motors to last about the duration of the race.

Quick calculation gives me about 300 watt-hours being used to dump 6 cell 3600 mAh pack in 5 minutes.
Going to 4 cell and gearing same cells to dump in 5 minutes gives me about 200 watt-hours. Now which formula do you think lets the motors last longer. And with 4 cell you can use slightly cheaper ESCs because there is less load on them.
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