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Old 01-04-2005, 05:05 AM   #361
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oscar Jansen
Adrian,

I do not think we (Team Orion) have mentioned 4 cell as ideal, like you have quoted. My wish is 5 cells (which proposal I started a while ago in the 3600 thread). I have even written you an email about that. Rick post admits our thought.

Can you tell me why you want to push 4 cell? Maybe there is something that we are missing?

Oscar

Wow! Oscar hopefully you will answer. Are there batteries we can use that offer lower vltages with the same 3300 mah that we use now. wouldnt having gp make batteries with higher IR's be better in achieving this?
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Old 01-04-2005, 05:29 AM   #362
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Originally posted by IMPACTPLAYR
When I am at the LHS I get sick to my stomache when I here someone come in and when asked what they are looking for...."I want the fastest" or ask "how fast is it?" I can't blame the LHS for selling them what they want, they have to make money....


Everyone of us has been there and all of us thought "what an idiot"...... the funny thing is most of the posts in this thread make me feel the same...... all of you seem to be saying "it won't be fast enough"..... however I haven't tried it so I can't say for sure how fast it will be so i won't argue this point.....


However I am willing to rebut on a few.....

First- "leave the cars at 6 cells but make them lighter".... hello to make the cars lighter you have to remove material, which makes it more fragile, then you will be criing "my car break even when I barely tap anything" Right now I think most manufacturers are striking the best balance in weight and durability.

Second- "if we start racing 4 cells then manufacturers will have to charge more to make the same profit"... wrong agian, with batteries costing 2/3 as much now the guys like myself that only buy 1-2 packs a year will have the extra cash to buy 3-4 packs.... and now they will have 33% more packs of the good stuff to sell to consumers... not to mention now 1/3 of the really good stuff that is now reserved for the sponcered racers will be available to teh public.... and those cells will go at a higher rate because of the better numbers..... Also nobody is saying every RC car should run on 4 cells, sport packs and spec packs will still be 6 cells. So now instead of racers getting stick packs all racers will have "racing batteries".....

Besides if the bigger matchers don't start doing something different they will be searching for new ways to make money.... there are just too many upstart matchers that sell for way more reasonable prices and offer the same/better preformance.....

Personally I can't understand for the life of me why Traxxas hasn't been sued yet.... I mean they built a 60+mph 9 pound land rocket that handles for $#it, advertise it as such and you just know some idiot parent that doesn't know their heads from thier a$$e$ when it comes to RC bought one for little 7 year old Jimmy.... and within 2 weeks he lost control of it and either hit himself or somebody else and broke their leg... and the to top it off they then built and released an 18LB. 40+mph tank ment for jumping and unleashed it on the morons of the world....
You and I must be thinking one the same wavelenght! When I worked at the LHS I tryed to explain to the customers that it not just about how fast the car can go. Plus Nitro is a PITA!
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Old 01-04-2005, 07:29 AM   #363
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speedxl - I don't mean to be a smart a$$ but do me a favor - E-mail or call Sanyo, GP, Panasonic and any other battery mfg. and tell them to make their batteries worse to help control the r/c market...lol.... Sorry, but you are barking up the wrong tree with this one. Batteries will continue to improve as technology improves.... Simple fact..... Give the batteries another 5-10years and you'll see a 190mm 6-cell electric TC car faster than a 200mm gas car!! The R/C Industry needs to keep an open mind as it may need to adjust for the good of the hobby in the near future.... Look at the speeds - In 5 years, electric has picked up at least 10-14mph in speed.... I have a radar gun and I do test alot...

Now, in reguards to your nitro comments. Of course, people want something that's going to go as fast as possible - in all reality though, even if they were sold an electric TC - Would they even come out and race or would they just backyard bash?? Associated told me a while back that they figure over 85% of the kits they make never see a race track!!!

I understand promoting the hobby - my hobby shop/race track is located inside of a mall. We've put up a plexi-glass wall around the track to protect the kids and we have a small area with specatator chairs. We are offering 18T and soon TC rental cars to let people try r/c and hopefully get into the hobby. It is impossible to build huge facilities to run 60mph cars on it unless you have the big $$. The mfg's don't want to get involved in this and the hobby shops (true hobby shop, not a "racing" shop) don't want the headache of running a race track as it can be a pain..... If they want to buy a 60mph car then there is nothing the hobby shop can do - should the shop not sell them the 60mph car/truck and just loose the sale if they don't want an electric car??
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Old 01-04-2005, 08:03 AM   #364
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Oscar - There is a lot of infrastructure in place to such as chargers and dischargers what will work with 1,4 or 6 cells only. 4 cell packs are already being sold. I am not dead set on 4 cell. If 5 cell can be incorporated into the hobby industry easily than it should be fine. I just though that 4 cell would be the easiest change.
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Old 01-04-2005, 09:16 AM   #365
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Speedxl- also do you really think lowering the voltage on our cells would make that big of difference?? C'mon man you'd open the hobby up to alot more cheating.... just rip the labels off of your really good stuff and either leave them black or make up ficticious labels to replace them..... I knowlet's raise the weight limit from 50 oz. to 66oz. Now everyone will have to put a 1 lb. weight in their car and that will slow it down........
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Old 01-04-2005, 10:06 AM   #366
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Quote:
Originally posted by Josh Cyrul
speedxl - I don't mean to be a smart a$$ but do me a favor - E-mail or call Sanyo, GP, Panasonic and any other battery mfg. and tell them to make their batteries worse to help control the r/c market...lol.... Sorry, but you are barking up the wrong tree with this one. Batteries will continue to improve as technology improves.... Simple fact..... Give the batteries another 5-10years and you'll see a 190mm 6-cell electric TC car faster than a 200mm gas car!! The R/C Industry needs to keep an open mind as it may need to adjust for the good of the hobby in the near future.... Look at the speeds - In 5 years, electric has picked up at least 10-14mph in speed.... I have a radar gun and I do test alot...

Now, in reguards to your nitro comments. Of course, people want something that's going to go as fast as possible - in all reality though, even if they were sold an electric TC - Would they even come out and race or would they just backyard bash?? Associated told me a while back that they figure over 85% of the kits they make never see a race track!!!

I understand promoting the hobby - my hobby shop/race track is located inside of a mall. We've put up a plexi-glass wall around the track to protect the kids and we have a small area with specatator chairs. We are offering 18T and soon TC rental cars to let people try r/c and hopefully get into the hobby. It is impossible to build huge facilities to run 60mph cars on it unless you have the big $$. The mfg's don't want to get involved in this and the hobby shops (true hobby shop, not a "racing" shop) don't want the headache of running a race track as it can be a pain..... If they want to buy a 60mph car then there is nothing the hobby shop can do - should the shop not sell them the 60mph car/truck and just loose the sale if they don't want an electric car??
I understand Josh. But didnt Gp alter the battery again for the 2nd or 3rd time for the R/C industry by making the battery shorter and also changing the chemical contents to allow for more batteries with higher voltage numbers ( consistantly better voltage ).

As far as the 60 mph bullet your right the hobby store doesnt want to loose a sale but for the most part atleast make an attempt to guide them in the right direction. People will do what they want regardless but some will understand.

And if batteries that good then lets put milder winds in the car. Why go to 4 cell 98% of the racing I do is outdoor in florida I see indoor carpet maybe twice a year. Indoor racing my be too fast but outdoor is a deferent ball game.

Funny how until when the v2 motors came onto the picture and started blowing away the other motors no one said anything but now they are struggling to sell motors they are proponents of the 4 cell class!

Look guys I've only said that there are other cells out there that have less voltage if not then let the motor men figure out ways to control the meltdowns. either milder winds or better matterial. None of the true hardcore guys want four cell.
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Old 01-04-2005, 10:30 AM   #367
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Quote:
Originally posted by IMPACTPLAYR
Speedxl- also do you really think lowering the voltage on our cells would make that big of difference?? C'mon man you'd open the hobby up to alot more cheating.... just rip the labels off of your really good stuff and either leave them black or make up ficticious labels to replace them..... I knowlet's raise the weight limit from 50 oz. to 66oz. Now everyone will have to put a 1 lb. weight in their car and that will slow it down........

What makes you think along those lines. I mentioned noting about regulating batteries friend! I said look for other brands that have similair performance to what we have with lower voltage, If I am not mistaken panasonic and sanyo have these.

The point that you all keep missing is the end result it will end up back where we started expensive.
Pluss I cant believe people crying about this and still saying there too fast.

I built an ITA vw GTI a few years ago.
I was being helped by a multiple scca regional champion. I asked him about how expensive will it cost to build a car?
He said if you have to ask then you cant afford to race! So I said common! give me an Idea. He said take the price of the car built, take out the cash make a pile and set it on fire. If you can do that again then dont worry ok!

Look I know thats rough but dude we are racing if your going to compete it costs money ! There is cost controlled racing out there but I dont see people lining up for the cheaper, easier to drive class! T-spec example. Its there but why dont people run them because it all boils down to speed and egos.

Who wants to be seen driving a rusty piece of shit they can afford! They ratther drive the spankn new top of the line SUV with 22 inch wheels and not afford anything else!
Same goes in our hobby.
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Old 01-04-2005, 10:33 AM   #368
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Quote:
If 5 cell can be incorporated into the hobby industry easily than it should be fine. I just though that 4 cell would be the easiest change.
Actually most true beginner chargers will not charge 4 cells. In this respect, going to 4 cell mod instead of 6-cell stock will cost more for the true beginner.

You will also need a more expensive ESC to run a modified motor that you would to run a stock motor. So does the cost of a more expensive motor, more expensive charger, and more expensive ESC, get offset by the small savings of 2-cells? Will the supposed motor life gains be large enough to make a 10 turn motor on 4 cells last as long as a stock on 6 cells??

Most chargers that do charge 4 cells will also charge 5 cells. Many charge 1-8 cells not 4 and 6 only.
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Old 01-04-2005, 10:39 AM   #369
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I must say that everyone in this forum has been a true gentalman. This has been the best debate I have encounterd on any forum. To have not seen anyone flamed has been great.

Too you all you have been Awsome give your selves a dat a boy!
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Old 01-04-2005, 10:49 AM   #370
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Speedxl -

1. Orion is selling V2's as fast as they can make them. They are on back order everywhere you try to buy them! The only thing they have done is release stiffer springs and super agressive brushes than turn them into 2 run motors...stupid fast for 2 runs though!

2. The motor guys have a $90 price limit. That has been the limit for the last 10 years. The motors now are WAY better than they were 10 years ago and the price has not gone up at all. The manufacturers at or very close to the limit of what they can do without raising prices.

3. Milder motors dont work we just run them harder and burn them up faster. 12T in Europe and 10T in the US were failures. These motors would burn up faster than 7 and 8 turns since we ran them harder.

4. Low voltage/High IR batteries...come on...are you for real?
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Old 01-04-2005, 11:13 AM   #371
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Quote:
Originally posted by AdrianM
Speedxl -

1. Orion is selling V2's as fast as they can make them. They are on back order everywhere you try to buy them! The only thing they have done is release stiffer springs and super agressive brushes than turn them into 2 run motors...stupid fast for 2 runs though!

2. The motor guys have a $90 price limit. That has been the limit for the last 10 years. The motors now are WAY better than they were 10 years ago and the price has not gone up at all. The manufacturers at or very close to the limit of what they can do without raising prices.

3. Milder motors dont work we just run them harder and burn them up faster. 12T in Europe and 10T in the US were failures. These motors would burn up faster than 7 and 8 turns since we ran them harder.

4. Low voltage/High IR batteries...come on...are you for real?
So much for me praising everyone!
Adrian did you see the post where oscar said to you! Who were you talking with about 4 cell ? He said 5 cell.
And for some one who only races locally modified Why are you worried about everyone else.

Where did I say orion wasnt selling motors I Said they were the only ones at the moment! ( Get reading basics)

I also said it as a suggestion to use a milder motor. Yes 10t and 12t's are burning up because people are gearing them to the moon. Then redisign the motors so they have to be geard different! (change the power band)


Adrian If you paid for stuff and raced more I would understand youre concern. But I pay and dont complain.

Like I said earlier if people wanted cheap racing they would get a t-spec but they dont!

Try and find a way to make tires cheaper! that would be a big help!

Oh Adrian I have been in this hobby long enough to say I know what I am talking about and remember this is an open thread with opinions and views displayed on here for discussion . There are a few of your points that I didnt knock down by saying you dont know what your talking about. I know we are buddies and we will be laughing about this later.
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Old 01-04-2005, 11:31 AM   #372
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Quote:
Milder motors dont work we just run them harder and burn them up faster
People will always burn up motors trying to get the most out of a given package. No change in cell count will ever change that. That is racing!
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Old 01-04-2005, 01:40 PM   #373
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Why not run mabuchi's?! there $10.00 you cant tune them, & great run time, for the stock classes, lets keep the motor thing fair for experienced & inexperienced! and for mod it's mod anything goes it's meant for experienced drivers, and 19Turn is middle ground a step up from stock/mabuchi.
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Old 01-04-2005, 02:18 PM   #374
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Speedxl - I have been in this hobby for 19 years. For the last 4 I have worked for Schumacher. I get Schumacher parts and cars , sometimes I get a discount here or there but for most stuff I go to hobby shops just like you. I am a member of the R/C industry I am more concerned about the healthy of this hobby and any racer. If you don't like racing you can quit and take up basket weaving . Its my livelihood. As a result, if I can see a way to improve any part of this industry I give it a shot.

You aren't up to speed on a lot of what is going on. For the most part all manufacturers and racers are on good terms with each other. We all talk to each other and discuss things that can help this hobby go to another level.

You seem to think everyone is out to rip you off or something. Its not like that at all. The guys that run R/C companies are the nicest most honest people I have ever met. The genuinely want the consumers of their products to have fun.
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Old 01-04-2005, 03:15 PM   #375
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The major problem with this hobby/sport is there is no one good Governerning body. To me, aside from the nats Roar is a joke and thats pretty much the consensus of all the racers I talk to.
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