R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-03-2005, 09:55 AM   #316
Tech Regular
 
brianhackett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: columbus ohio
Posts: 336
Wink Fat, Skinny?

Sorry, brian ya Brad's were lucky to make it a run, balognia after mains nobody likes to slide the corners like him

But that's not a problem anymore cause we got the rug now!
brianhackett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 09:57 AM   #317
Tech Elite
 
CypressMidWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 4,618
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by AdrianM
Casual club racers run full size foams and get smoked when they come to big races.
AdrianM: I don't know how the guys are in your area, but EVERY track I've been to, the "Casual Racers" get smoked at club races, rubber or foam, Nitro or Electric.

brian: edited, I guess I should pay more attention. All I really saw was Hackett.
__________________
Team CRC, PowerPush, Access Race Place, US Indoor Champs, CD SUPERPRO, RK Designs, TxDSkingraphix, Cypress, Founder and lead instructor of the Ian Ruggles Negative Reinforcement Driver Training Program, enroll now.....

Last edited by CypressMidWest; 01-03-2005 at 10:12 AM.
CypressMidWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 10:24 AM   #318
Tech Champion
 
AdrianM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 5,914
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Cypress - Yeah, our asphalt is like 80 grit sandpaper...i'm not kidding!

I am kinda lucky as I race at Speedline Hobbies. The owner had some really nice asphalt laid down for the track and wear is not too bad. We can get 4 runs in open mod with CS27GL's. The Stock and 19T guys get 8-12 runs on the same tires.

I tried some 40 shore nitro foams (full 65mm) on my electric car once and it was good. I tried them at 57mm and they were REALLY good. However, I was loosing close to 1mm per run per tire. Thats the problem with foams.

Most racers are like thedominator. They just want to run and have fun. If you loose 1mm of ride height per run and you raise your car back to normal you just changed your droop and camber too. Now you handling goes away. Are average racers willing to keep up with this...no. So they race rubber.
__________________
Adrian Martinez
What I run: Schumacher Mi5/Associated RC10R5.1/Associated RC12R5.2/Futaba/HobbyWing/Team EA Motorsports/BSR Racing
Where I run: Florida Indoor R/C Complex/Thunder Racing/Florida On Road State Series
AdrianM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 10:50 AM   #319
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 8,366
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

Adrian I would like to add something to your foam tire outdoor on electric conversation here. As you know Fred and I tested about every different company and compound on the MI2 outside. Up here in Trinity land we wanted to prove we could go fast without TRC. Not getting into that debate....when you start outside you want your tires around 59-60 for electric and nitro. with electric once your tires hit 57 put them away and save them for indoor. You can run them as low as 55-56 without slowing down but since we race carpet too we would rather save em. Nitro, run them down to 57 or so. You might be able to go a little smaller but Its usually just a practice tire at that point. This is based on 3+years of running foam all year round inside and out. towards the end of last outdoor season the trend was to run larger tires. In fact I ran CS27's for one of my mains because i relized at the last minute one of my rims was cracked....sure the setup was a little off but not by much. but the bottem line is, foam is faster...lots faster.
__________________
Tekno|JConcepts|TeamTrinity|BOOMrc
Bob Barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 11:02 AM   #320
Tech Elite
 
CypressMidWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 4,618
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Adrian:That's probably even more abrasive than what we run on, and that may be why you guys get more life outta rubber tires than we do. Regardless of set-up we have a fair amount of sliding with rubbers that we don't get with foams. Maybe we're just burning the CS27's up while the cars are sliding?

1 mm a run (5 min. qual) is about what our Nitro guys lose, I'm generally measuring tire wear in thousanths of an inch on my electric car. I do however monitor my droop, etc. though. I guess I'm hardcore and look at this as a part of racing.
__________________
Team CRC, PowerPush, Access Race Place, US Indoor Champs, CD SUPERPRO, RK Designs, TxDSkingraphix, Cypress, Founder and lead instructor of the Ian Ruggles Negative Reinforcement Driver Training Program, enroll now.....
CypressMidWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 11:09 AM   #321
Tech Elite
 
speedxl's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Portland Oregon.
Posts: 3,881
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by picco007
Speedxl, What Adrian is purposing is will bring the cost of racing down, ie less tires to buy, and 4 cell instead of 6 cell batteries. The motors should last longer.

I understand, that many of us do not want change in racing, but change in the amount of what we spend can be changed, correct? Well this may help in the long run.....
Dropping four cells is great idea on paper most of us can handle the speed. Some of us dont cry when we get beat by someone faster. People just need to accept that if they race to run within thier buget.
Yes I can I agree that running at the top level is expensive. But the problem is everybody has an ego and goes out spends too much money to keep up with the fast guys that get it free. Listen to me now hear me later! NO body will look down at you if you make the d main! Not everyone is an A main contender. If you all consentrated on your driving and forget about what the next guy is doing you would do better.

Dropping 2 cells is'nt going to make it cheaper in the long run guys it will catch up to the level its at now do you think the manufactures will say "OK" I will deal with the loss because everyone is happy! OF COURSE NOT! they will jack up the prices to compensate for the profit loss. Then you all will be crying again its too expensive to race.

The real problem we are facing is that the cost has blown out the roof in stock because of the factory guys running the class. Yes the technology in the 27t class is out dated. Its time to have a new motor designed for this class, the inconsistancy in these motor is crazy.
With all the modern technology we have available why cant they design a motor that when manufactured is closer in performance to the next one! (sorry guys I'm not talking brushless).

Well after cleveland I sat down and worked out the numbers on paper its definatly cheaper to run mod today than its to run stock. With the orion motor and those to follow its gonna be better!
Buying 2xtra motors and equipment to check the magnets, zap and dyno the motors pluss the time spent setting up. I could have signed up raced and achieved simaliar results running mod for less money. I think we are all waisting time and money with stock.
Which is a class designed for the beginer so hence those guys your complaining about are cherry pickers and need to be moved out of stock so the new guys and none factory backed guys can race.

Sorry for the long post!
I would like to see at big races a 1 motor rule for stock! luck of the draw. Also a claimer rule if you think someone elses motor is faster pay a 25.00 dollar
fee and your slug in exchange for the one that you think is faster! this would would move certain people out of stock because those fast guys with the equipment will say forget this I am not building motors for others and go run mod where they belong!

Sorry for the long post just some Ideas!
__________________
Pemberton / R1 / All out motorsports / Team Power Push
speedxl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 11:35 AM   #322
Tech Elite
 
vtl1180ny's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Wrong Island
Posts: 4,963
Default

Maybe it's time to go back to NON-Rebuildable stock motors... I've still got a couple of old Point Blank's and GM1's lying around in perfect working condition....

I've been in this hobby for a long time and have seen some changes for the better and many worse.... TC's have gotten out of control as have stock... 19t isn't far behind.... Tc's are very new to me, I stopped racing in 1994 and started back up last year for half the season, I still have a lot to learn....

Going to 4 cells is just going to make the motor and battery wars much worse...

I could see 4 cell on a lighter chassis, but not on the current crop of TC's....
__________________
I still lurk....
vtl1180ny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 11:39 AM   #323
Tech Elite
 
Francis M.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Yorba Linda, CA
Posts: 4,719
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default re: FOAM TIRES.

I run nitro for the whole year and i can tell you that foam tires helped keep costs down compared to rubber tires. i get a minimum of 12 runs on foams. to save time on reseting the car i usually cut two sets for the day at 60mm and use one set for qualifying and the 2nd for the mains. Now you can reuse them for the next race weekend or another time when that shore is applicable. I think rubber tires are also good but it isn't cheaper than foam tires.
__________________
TQ-racing Yokomo BD7 Airtronics
Francis M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 12:37 PM   #324
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,159
Trader Rating: 13 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by speedxl
Dropping four cells is great idea on paper most of us can handle the speed. Some of us dont cry when we get beat by someone faster. People just need to accept that if they race to run within thier buget.
Yes I can I agree that running at the top level is expensive. But the problem is everybody has an ego and goes out spends too much money to keep up with the fast guys that get it free. Listen to me now hear me later! NO body will look down at you if you make the d main! Not everyone is an A main contender. If you all consentrated on your driving and forget about what the next guy is doing you would do better.

Dropping 2 cells is'nt going to make it cheaper in the long run guys it will catch up to the level its at now do you think the manufactures will say "OK" I will deal with the loss because everyone is happy! OF COURSE NOT! they will jack up the prices to compensate for the profit loss. Then you all will be crying again its too expensive to race.

The real problem we are facing is that the cost has blown out the roof in stock because of the factory guys running the class. Yes the technology in the 27t class is out dated. Its time to have a new motor designed for this class, the inconsistancy in these motor is crazy.
With all the modern technology we have available why cant they design a motor that when manufactured is closer in performance to the next one! (sorry guys I'm not talking brushless).

Well after cleveland I sat down and worked out the numbers on paper its definatly cheaper to run mod today than its to run stock. With the orion motor and those to follow its gonna be better!
Buying 2xtra motors and equipment to check the magnets, zap and dyno the motors pluss the time spent setting up. I could have signed up raced and achieved simaliar results running mod for less money. I think we are all waisting time and money with stock.
Which is a class designed for the beginer so hence those guys your complaining about are cherry pickers and need to be moved out of stock so the new guys and none factory backed guys can race.

Sorry for the long post!
I would like to see at big races a 1 motor rule for stock! luck of the draw. Also a claimer rule if you think someone elses motor is faster pay a 25.00 dollar
fee and your slug in exchange for the one that you think is faster! this would would move certain people out of stock because those fast guys with the equipment will say forget this I am not building motors for others and go run mod where they belong!

Sorry for the long post just some Ideas!
Very well put.
__________________
https://www.gofundme.com/ncontrol
Joe Maxey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 01:03 PM   #325
Tech Master
 
Josh Cyrul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Farmington Hills, Michigan
Posts: 1,409
Default

Sitting here, I've read through nearly the whole thread.... I see everyone arguing about this but the question is.... Has anyone tested 4-cell racing??? Oval racers were stubborn too but they tried it, adapted and are better off now because of it.

Back a few years ago (1998) we ran the ROAR Carpet Oval Nats in Akron in 6-cell Mod. TQ was around a 63 5:04. In 2002 we were back there again but everything changed and it was 4-cell mod. The TQ was a 62 4:00.... With the new battery and motor technology now I guess they are up around the 65-66 lap mark!!! The first year I ran for Trinity 1/12 4-cell cars were going around 36mph at top speed, my last race for Trinity I ran 46mph at top speed - 10mph in 5 years.... Technology is impressive isn't it?? Where will it be in another 5 years??

Motors do last much better on 4-cell vs. 6-cell - period. I've run 4-cell and 6-cell over 1,000's of races over my years and until the V2 motor and now the $30.00pr brushes have been coming out, it has been impossible to get the same performance out of a brushed motor on consecutive runs with 6-cells. I've run the same V2 motor I won Cleveland with this year in my 1/12 car now with over 25 runs on the same pair of brushes with the same performance (cutting about every 6 runs). Granted it's comparing apples to oranges but even with V2 technology, you couldn't do that with the same power with a 6-cell TC - I understand the weight and load difference is a major part of that but 4 cells might split the difference.

It's funny to hear people talk about the difference in batteries, here's something to think about:

6-cells @ 1.17 = 7.02
6-cells @ 1.15 = 6.90

4-cells @ 1.17 = 4.68
4-cells @ 1.15 = 4.60

Seems to me like a good pack will still be better and voltage will still be voltage but the actual total difference is smaller meaning maybe not quite as big of a performance differance on the track - compare .12 vs .08....... As others have also noticed - all 4-cell racing means 2 extra good cells off of the current packs to go into another pack - sounds like more good cells to go around for everyone.....

Now, reducing the weight of the cars due to 2 less cells and you have less force behind impacts to break parts and less wear and tear on bodies, tires and basically every aspect of the car... This means less cost for everyone.

This is a minor issue but it also would help traveling as the airliners now have lowered the weights on what we can carry - carrying 4-cell packs that can be used in both TC and 1/12 would mean less packs carried and a lot less weight to lug around and deal with at the airport - again - this is a really minor issue in the big picture...

The plain and simple truth of this is: Batteries will continue to improve. The hobby needs to plan for this and be prepared to make the nessisary adjustments for the good of the industry. Yes, everyone wants speed but that is relative - look back a few years and tell me how many "new" racers we have coming into the racing and into the "pro" levels. The future of the hobby/industry is the most important no matter how fast we all think we should be going.... Just ask the "near extinct" oval racers.....

Just my .02..... I could be wrong....
__________________
Destiny, Ko Propo, Hobby Wing, Ulti Racing Tires, Protoform, Xenon Racing, Pivothead, Vizon, TQ Wire & Hella Graphics
Josh Cyrul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 01:21 PM   #326
JKA
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,000
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Josh Cyrul
Sitting here, I've read through nearly the whole thread.... I see everyone arguing about this but the question is.... Has anyone tested 4-cell racing???
Though I'm not close to being an expert, I tried it at practice one night. Here are my thoughts posted a few pages back...

Quote:
Originally posted by JKA
Well... I braved the carpet tonight with an 8x2 Orion V2 and 4 cell Fusion 1.18 packs in my Xray. Mixed to technical ozite carpet track with approximately 70' backstraight.

I now completely oppose switching from 6 cell to 4 cell across the board. But I COMPLETELY support replacing stock racing with 4 cell mod (with a motor limit perhaps 8 or 10 turn).

I started 4 teeth higher than my 6 cell gearing and the car was similar to a stock car.. actually a tick slower through technical sections. I didn't change any setup until my gearing was right... and just like Adrian suggested I kept going up until my lap times peaked. I ended up going up 8 teeth. Wow.

The car handled GREAT from the start, but I did make a few changes to try to free up the car a bit. When things really leveled off I was faster than the fastest stock racers, but slower than 6 cell Mod. At our track Mod runs in the 38-39 lap range in 5 minutes while stock is 34. With my 4 cell Mod I was in the 35-36 range.

The kicker was that the motor temp was very cool, as were the batteries, after 5 minutes and runtime was not even close to being an issue.

The lighter car was actually easier to drive than a 6 cell stock car. The throttle response was smoother and the top speed was faster than stock. The car was much easier to correct when entering a corner too hot, and the smooth acceleration made corner off VERY controllable.

On a high speed large track I'm sure the 4 cell mod would be more comparable to 6 cell mod than stock. After my initial runs though I'm still not sold that it will be AS fast. I am however sold on the idea that for short technical tracks the 4 cell mod is a great alternative to Stock. Given that many of the guys at my track are tired of having to have all of their motors tuned by the local motor man (who by the way is one of the 2 fastest stock racers at the track) I might try to pitch the idea of having 4 cell and 6 cell TC next winter as opposed to stock and mod.

The car was fun for sure though. Its still not the adrenaline rush of 6 cell mod, but 4 cell could definitely find its niche in our class structure. I'm anxious to hear others input after they've tried it.
Quote:
Originally posted by JKA
I found the car easier to drive than 6 cell stock, yet a lap or 2 faster across a 5 minute run.

This however was on a relatively small carpet track, which brings up the biggest issue I forsee.
4 cell Mod on a large flowing track will actually be closer to 6 cell Mod, whereas on the short technical tracks its closer to 6 cell stock. I feel this is so because of the decreased 'punch' of 4 cells though those 4 cells when geared appropriately will provide ample top speeds.
JKA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 01:39 PM   #327
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 123
Default

I think 4-cell touring is a great idea. The reason being that it gets all the experienced pros out of stock. I would bet that locally 1/2 of the drivers running stock should be running mod. They rationalize this b/c that are not "factory" drivers.

They don't because it's too costly or so they say. The current crop of mods has helped but not much. The idea that mod is costly and maintnence intensive is etched permanently into there brain. Because of this newbies don't have a class for themselves. A place to develop there skills.

The change would force many to switch to mod without all the downfalls previously encountered. For those of you who say batteries will be a larger part my response is that the only reason batteries are as big as they are is because you think it gives you an advantage.

How much difference does a point on voltage or IR really make? NONE. The same goes for a stock motor. I know your thinking I'm crazy but it's the truth, because one wreck or even a single bobble makes more difference than that miniscule amount of battery.

There is 1 irrefutable truth in racing and that is that even though money can buy you equipment it can't make you a better driver. Practice is the best way to go fast. That's something that I was told long ago, when I 1st started and that was the best advice anyone could have given me.

Oh yeah, for whomever made the comment about going back to dirt when it's dirt again. That is so accurate it's not even funny. The current high bite, blue groove tracks suck.
RTolle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 01:51 PM   #328
Tech Elite
 
CypressMidWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 4,618
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Leave it to Josh to look at this from a business perspective. You'd think he had some sort of vested interest in the industry or something. LOL.

I personally hate the idea of four-cell Touring, but hey, all it's gonna do is make 12thscale more appealing in my eyes anyway.
__________________
Team CRC, PowerPush, Access Race Place, US Indoor Champs, CD SUPERPRO, RK Designs, TxDSkingraphix, Cypress, Founder and lead instructor of the Ian Ruggles Negative Reinforcement Driver Training Program, enroll now.....
CypressMidWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 01:58 PM   #329
Tech Elite
 
speedxl's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Portland Oregon.
Posts: 3,881
Default

Josh the equipement has nothing to do with growth of the sport. I started racing back in 1986 and chased Art Carbonel, Andy Dobson, Chris doseck, and Rott to name a few. I didnt cry I learned some people no matter what eqipment they used plain and simply sucked. I can make the c or d at a national and realize that is probobly as good as I will do. I still go out there and practice to be faster. After doing this on and off since 86 I have seen attendence go up and down.

We are looking at reasons why there is'nt any growth in this hobby. You will agree with me on this. We use to have clubs (real clubs not private tracks) and most of these clubs held events at public parks, and out in front of malls! there was plenty of foot traffic! Now with no offense to your track or any others private tracks are hidden and out of sight, add to that with the introduction of ten scale nitro wether it be offraod or onroad Hobby stores push this stuff onto newbies like its going out of style.
I know this first hand aswell as most of you because you see how many kids walking into the store and say I want that rtr nitro deluxe and the salesperson will never stop and say! Have you ever had an r/c car or are your parents helping you!
Now that kid goes starts it once thinks he knows what he is doing and makes a carb adjustment back to the store goes mom and dad complaining that the car doesnt work. Hobby shop charges $15.00 and hour and sends the kid off with a little knowledge. Granted there are some that will give them a basic idea of does and donts.
Still 2nd time in the store the parents will have had enough and the car gets sold on ebay or put in the garage. If the sales person would have said start out in electric and work you way up it might have let the kid along with the parents progress with the hobby.
Pluss the sales pitch with nitro is you dont need expensive batts or chargers pluss you dont have to rebuild the motors! I hear it all the time. So unless people are tought at time of purchase and tracks put out back in the eye of the public we wont get that increase of newbies pluss that era called the late 80's and 90's is gone people want special treatment and instant gratification no one wants to start from scratch everyone wants to be world champion the first time out!

So lets stop blaming equipment and look for the real answer why there arent more newbies. I think they are over at the nitro track getting fustrated and going home!
__________________
Pemberton / R1 / All out motorsports / Team Power Push

Last edited by speedxl; 01-03-2005 at 02:04 PM.
speedxl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2005, 02:25 PM   #330
Tech Elite
 
CypressMidWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 4,618
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
So lets stop blaming equipment and look for the real answer why there arent more newbies. I think they are over at the nitro track getting fustrated and going home! [/B]
That is one of the most eloquent and accurate posts I've read in a long time. I too remember the old days, when your first car was a Grasshopper or a Falcon, and you bought a "combo". You actually BUILT your car from a kit, and learned about it as you assembled it. When it broke, the end user actually,(gasp!), repaired it themselves!!!!

Now all anyone looks at is the pretty "60+ MPH!!" printed on the outside of the box, and that's what they buy. Forget the fact that they just purchased a Nitro TC which comes with a 27 MHZ AM radio, which ironically enough is how every ready to fly $50 electric plane, and electric RTR rc car is equipped. They go out with no rc experience whatsoever, and if they do manage to get it started they drive it full bore into the nearest curb. They then pick up the smoking rubble and carry it into the hobbystore to complain. It doesn't matter whther the HS associate tried to sell them a nice electric set-up or not. All they say when you try to do that is, "Yeah but the electric car don't go 60, so I'll take one of them Nitro cars."
__________________
Team CRC, PowerPush, Access Race Place, US Indoor Champs, CD SUPERPRO, RK Designs, TxDSkingraphix, Cypress, Founder and lead instructor of the Ian Ruggles Negative Reinforcement Driver Training Program, enroll now.....
CypressMidWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sedan Racing @ MARCCA futureal MARCCA Discussion 86 08-25-2004 06:31 PM
Alex Racing 4wd sedan PIIHB! R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 9 04-24-2004 10:39 AM
indoor sedan racing Matt M. Wisconsin & Illinois Racing 8 12-20-2001 12:04 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 06:37 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net