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Old 12-29-2004, 07:12 PM   #226
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Default Re: in answer..

Quote:
Originally posted by blownawayig
I heard that same attitude when Flew R/C helicopters...If you can't afford it don't do it. It's the money that seperates the men from the boys...

Well,,,it took the entire R/C helicopter hobby almost completely disappearing to change that attitude. They were a bunch of elitists. And money did seperate the men from the boys,,,Alot of crashed heli's, broken $200 blade sets, and alot of heli's hanging in the garage getting no flight time. Now look at R/C Heli's,,,someone figured it out....There's R/C heli ads in car mags...The elitest attitude went away. It's one of the fastest growing segments of R/C Hobbies. Electric Airplanes and Electric Personal Sized Heli's...

And as a former owner of a hobby shop and track,,,I can tell you, that attitude really doesn't work...because, Like I said, this is a hobby,,,no one needs to do it, and they won't.

And as for real racing dollars. If you match yesterdays dollar to todays and make it equal value,,,yes it is less expensive. But I guess with the if you can't afford it, get out attitude, the nascar guys from 10th place on down really don't need to race because they can't afford to spend enough to win...Oh wait,,,that sounds like F1, can't fill the grid...or Moto GP,,,got ten open spot on the grid...Oh wait,,,sounds like a lot of tracks around here,,,because racer turn out is awefully low...

What if your local hobby shop raised all of their prices to make what they really needed to survive. The told you, if you can't afford it, quit,,find another hobby.

That's the attitude that keeps this Hobby from being BIG,,,,like it is in other countries....
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Old 12-29-2004, 07:14 PM   #227
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Default Isn't this a great country

isn't this a great country when everyone can have an opinion and express it...

I just enjoy racing and want more people to enjoy it too..

and like anything else,,,it costs,,,

and like anything else,,,sometimes people can effect a change...Manufactures need to give to get...

hell, I'd race toasters if that was what they raced here. But then, there's the 2 slice, 4 slice and bagel sized issue...
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Old 12-29-2004, 07:24 PM   #228
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Default Re: Re: get your high temp undies on

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Turbo Joe
[B]
As far at the "ESC of the month" deal goes...either they conform or they don't. As long as they conform to the rules...you can always try to buy your way up...nothing different, just that the benefits will be much less -- assuming that all the ESC's will be built to conform to certain standards...and assuming that the manufacturers build them to meet the rules and don't leave anythng on the table.



That's a lot of assuming. I trust the manufactures.....don't you ?
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:05 PM   #229
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blownawayig,

I wholeheartedly agree.

I just got into this a year or two ago...and started racing a year ago. If you want to race...even in Novice at our local tracks...you need 400-500 worth of stuff to be competitive. If you just want to try and stay within the rails...you can just run an RTR with a couple stickpacks and a Superbrain...but that's about as far as you're going to get for $400. Just try and convince someone new to go racing with you...LOL

Stock should be about an even and affordable playing field...where the fun/dollar ratio is still reasonable. I think that most reasonable people see right up front what a "black hole" of money it is. There is no bottom line answer to the first question they ask..."How much does it cost to race?" If you give them an honest answer...they run for the exit.

I think that most people understand that it's never going to be a totally level playing field(nor should it be) or cheap...but that doesn't mean we can't try to make it much better and more fun than it is now.
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:07 PM   #230
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i think by limiting the number of cells you will reduce the cost of the hobby quite a bit, until the demand for the very best cells becomes even greater and we are putting more of a strain on the cells to perform even better then we have. I mean, look at it this way. With 6 cells and our current GP cells, almost everyone can get access to the 1.18+ cells that we all seek. Going done to 4 cells, then the voltage will be even more critical. Would we then see cell prices increase dramatically because this matcher or that can make 1.19 or 1.20 or 1.21 cells. And the question is, how many of those types of cells can a matcher get. 1% of there total cells match. What would the cost of those cells be? I know that we have those demands now, but think about what the demand will be when we limit the cell count to 4 cells. and how much of a difference the higher voltage would make for a 4 cell tc.

I like the idea of reducing the cost of the hobby and to be able to attract and retain new people into the hobby. I just think that ultimately it will also increase the cost of the hobby maybe not fo rthe newbie, but for the rest of us. As you all brought up, all forms of racing has created rules to limit the speed, but have you looked at the cost to each team to still create the engine that will produce the same HP with less displacement? F1 is going through that now. They are limiting the engines for the 2006 season to 8 cylinders. "This will be a bug saving to teams". funny thing is that most of the engine builders say no. Now we just need to figure out how to get the same Hp out of 2 less cylinders. Creating more HP out of less equals more dollars in the motor itself. trying to find that much more efficiency in every part.

Adrain, I think the idea is sound, but to complete the thought, they sould limit the battery. Just like stock motors. make a cap in dollars. I think what we are seeing is that most stock motors are about the same now. because they have been limited to the cost of the motor, so companies are only willing to do soo much for the stock motor. I think if we limited the cost of the cells to the end user for each class of racing, that will control the cost to a racer.

Don't know if this is all sound, just an observation. I have only been in this for about 2 years so I don't have the history of the hobby.
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:21 PM   #231
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Default Brushless kicks ass.

I think you may have missed part of the context for my assumptions.

Company "A", "B" and "C" get the rules and build an ESC that conforms to the rules (max RPM and rate of acceleration/punch). If that they build them to conform while in some "restricted/spec" mode and don't exceed those parameters (easy enough to check electronically)...problem solved. You could build a more efficient or more powerful motor if you wanted...but the gains would be slight, if any.

The only way you'd be advantaged by trading ESC's is if one of the companies limited the "spec mode" to a lower RPM than the rules allowed...or if one or the other had a reliabilty issue.

From what I've seen, a sensored brushless ESC is a lot closer to a car ECU than any brushed ESC. Unlike a brushed ESC, they "know" (and can control) how fast the motor is turning . They actually do control the motors the same way a car ECU drives injectors and coils.

Quote:
Originally posted by jag88
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Joe

As far at the "ESC of the month" deal goes...either they conform or they don't. As long as they conform to the rules...you can always try to buy your way up...nothing different, just that the benefits will be much less -- assuming that all the ESC's will be built to conform to certain standards...and assuming that the manufacturers build them to meet the rules and don't leave anythng on the table.


That's a lot of assuming. I trust the manufactures.....don't you ?
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:33 PM   #232
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Default Brushless kicks ass.

And to those of you who think the brushless cost thing is going to keep people out...

Tell someone to buy a decent ESC (75-150) and a "stock" motor (30-40)...then tell them that it only lasts 5-10 races and it has to be rebuilt and will need new brushes at 3-5 bucks...and that they have to ask a stranger or otherwise "get the 'comm skimmed'.." to keep it running well...most people with common sense see the folly in that pretty quickly.

Tell them to spend $200-220 ONCE and they're done spending money on motors forever and it's not a tough sell at all. People will spend money if they think it'll get them to some minimum competitive level..it's that sinking feeling of pissing money down a black hole that makes "normal" people leery.

The only thing that keeps people from buying and using brushless motors in racing is the crybabies that have tons of money invested in brushed equipment.
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:45 PM   #233
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Default Re: in answer..

Quote:
Originally posted by blownawayig
I heard that same attitude when Flew R/C helicopters...If you can't afford it don't do it. It's the money that seperates the men from the boys...

Well,,,it took the entire R/C helicopter hobby almost completely disappearing to change that attitude. They were a bunch of elitists. And money did seperate the men from the boys,,,Alot of crashed heli's, broken $200 blade sets, and alot of heli's hanging in the garage getting no flight time. Now look at R/C Heli's,,,someone figured it out....There's R/C heli ads in car mags...The elitest attitude went away. It's one of the fastest growing segments of R/C Hobbies. Electric Airplanes and Electric Personal Sized Heli's...

And as a former owner of a hobby shop and track,,,I can tell you, that attitude really doesn't work...because, Like I said, this is a hobby,,,no one needs to do it, and they won't.

And as for real racing dollars. If you match yesterdays dollar to todays and make it equal value,,,yes it is less expensive. But I guess with the if you can't afford it, get out attitude, the nascar guys from 10th place on down really don't need to race because they can't afford to spend enough to win...Oh wait,,,that sounds like F1, can't fill the grid...or Moto GP,,,got ten open spot on the grid...Oh wait,,,sounds like a lot of tracks around here,,,because racer turn out is awefully low...

What if your local hobby shop raised all of their prices to make what they really needed to survive. The told you, if you can't afford it, quit,,find another hobby.

That's the attitude that keeps this Hobby from being BIG,,,,like it is in other countries....
I am proud to be an American but the reason racing is bigger over seas is they have 2 forms of major league sports Soccer, and Auto racing. Pluss the mentality is different everyone is freerer in spirit and arent whinners like in this country. We have a bunch of cry babies who want special treatment because they cant beat the fast guy so they take thier toys to another play ground where they are top dog. When will some of these people realize someguys are better then others. Butch up and if you suck as a driver learn to do the best you can and enjoy a nice hobby to relief stress from everyday life!
Things in general has changed not just in our hobby but our lives. Modern people are cry babies and want special treatment.
I understand somepeople cant afford to race but when I got into this hobby in 1986 the atmoshere at the track was more laxed then now. Everyone has to win at all cost. We are the ones to blame for this not the manufactures. Theres no need to go to the track with 3 gfx's and a motor dyno and 2 cars with a backup, dont forget the 20 motors in the box with all the nice tools. Man my plano fishing box and 1 car provided alot of fun back then. But then everybody bought bigger tool boxes to win. Not just our hobby but everything nowadays is more expensive. Technology is costly!
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Old 12-29-2004, 09:06 PM   #234
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Default Re: Re: in answer..

Quote:
Originally posted by speedxl
I am proud to be an American but the reason racing is bigger over seas is they have 2 forms of major league sports Soccer, and Auto racing. Pluss the mentality is different everyone is freerer in spirit and arent whinners like in this country. We have a bunch of cry babies who want special treatment because they cant beat the fast guy so they take thier toys to another play ground where they are top dog. When will some of these people realize someguys are better then others. Butch up and if you suck as a driver learn to do the best you can and enjoy a nice hobby to relief stress from everyday life!
Things in general has changed not just in our hobby but our lives. Modern people are cry babies and want special treatment.
I understand somepeople cant afford to race but when I got into this hobby in 1986 the atmoshere at the track was more laxed then now. Everyone has to win at all cost. We are the ones to blame for this not the manufactures. Theres no need to go to the track with 3 gfx's and a motor dyno and 2 cars with a backup, dont forget the 20 motors in the box with all the nice tools. Man my plano fishing box and 1 car provided alot of fun back then. But then everybody bought bigger tool boxes to win. Not just our hobby but everything nowadays is more expensive. Technology is costly!
True, but I think, if I'm not mistaken, that you just entirely supplemented blownawayig's viewpoint...

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Old 12-29-2004, 09:31 PM   #235
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" Everyone has to win at all cost. We are the ones to blame for this not the manufactures."

Unfortunatley, this is a problem for a big part of society. Just look at the t shirts that say "2nd place is 1st loser" etc. Basically the attitude is if you're not #1 you suck.
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:30 PM   #236
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That's true...but I think most people are good sports and they're not out for total world domination. I think most "average Joes" (like me) just want to have a little more "fun time" and a lot less "piss money" time. The guys that are out for blood aren't a threat unless they have game...if they do, then they're going to be in a higher class anyways.

I know you aren't always going to win...or even come close...but it sucks to spend ANOTHER $35 on ANOTHER POS Monster just to have the glitching POS go into the wall at full speed -- especially when I have a perfectly good 4300 setup that never lets me down.

Win or lose -- I just want a good race. A good race to me isn't one where some circa-1920 POS motor destroys the front of my car and ends my racing for the night and my only alternative is to go shell out another $35 for a replacement and take my chances again.

There's better, cheaper and more reliable technology out there right now...and we ought to take advantage of it. If some of you guys were involved in the technolgy sector, we'd still be using vacuum tubes right now and cars would still have points (or even magnetos)and carburetors.




Quote:
Originally posted by robk
" Everyone has to win at all cost. We are the ones to blame for this not the manufactures."

Unfortunatley, this is a problem for a big part of society. Just look at the t shirts that say "2nd place is 1st loser" etc. Basically the attitude is if you're not #1 you suck.
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:47 PM   #237
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Well... I braved the carpet tonight with an 8x2 Orion V2 and 4 cell Fusion 1.18 packs in my Xray. Mixed to technical ozite carpet track with approximately 70' backstraight.

I now completely oppose switching from 6 cell to 4 cell across the board. But I COMPLETELY support replacing stock racing with 4 cell mod (with a motor limit perhaps 8 or 10 turn).

I started 4 teeth higher than my 6 cell gearing and the car was similar to a stock car.. actually a tick slower through technical sections. I didn't change any setup until my gearing was right... and just like Adrian suggested I kept going up until my lap times peaked. I ended up going up 8 teeth. Wow.

The car handled GREAT from the start, but I did make a few changes to try to free up the car a bit. When things really leveled off I was faster than the fastest stock racers, but slower than 6 cell Mod. At our track Mod runs in the 38-39 lap range in 5 minutes while stock is 34. With my 4 cell Mod I was in the 35-36 range.

The kicker was that the motor temp was very cool, as were the batteries, after 5 minutes and runtime was not even close to being an issue.

The lighter car was actually easier to drive than a 6 cell stock car. The throttle response was smoother and the top speed was faster than stock. The car was much easier to correct when entering a corner too hot, and the smooth acceleration made corner off VERY controllable.

On a high speed large track I'm sure the 4 cell mod would be more comparable to 6 cell mod than stock. After my initial runs though I'm still not sold that it will be AS fast. I am however sold on the idea that for short technical tracks the 4 cell mod is a great alternative to Stock. Given that many of the guys at my track are tired of having to have all of their motors tuned by the local motor man (who by the way is one of the 2 fastest stock racers at the track) I might try to pitch the idea of having 4 cell and 6 cell TC next winter as opposed to stock and mod.

When I tossed the idea out to local racers, none believed that the 4 cell could approach the speed and appeal of 6 cell mod though they did enjoy watching my car for sure. More than a few however did immediately recognize some positives such as decreased battery expense (in one guys words... "I'll have plenty of batteries that way") and also eliminating the whole stock motor tuning issue we have now. A couple even talked about lighter cars not breaking as much and decreased tire wear ( I didn't notice less tire wear tonight though... still lost just over 1 mm which is normal).

The car was fun for sure though. Its still not the adrenaline rush of 6 cell mod, but 4 cell could definitely find its niche in our class structure. I'm anxious to hear others input after they've tried it.
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Old 12-29-2004, 11:17 PM   #238
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Default Re: Re: Re: in answer..

Quote:
Originally posted by JayBee
True, but I think, if I'm not mistaken, that you just entirely supplemented blownawayig's viewpoint...

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I entirely disagree ...well not quite entirely

The first part slightly supports Blownaway's point...Depending on how you interpret it

The last part seems to support my point slightly (racing is as expensive as we make it, companies are just smart enough to cash in on it!)
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Old 12-29-2004, 11:58 PM   #239
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Post Re: Re: Re: Re: in answer..

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Originally posted by BlackKat
I entirely disagree ...well not quite entirely

The first part slightly supports Blownaway's point...Depending on how you interpret it

The last part seems to support my point slightly (racing is as expensive as we make it, companies are just smart enough to cash in on it!)
That's why I said 'supplement', not 'complement' ...

... it's all semantics LOL

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Old 12-30-2004, 12:22 AM   #240
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well,,,I think the bottom line is,,,that everyone needs to come up with realistic ideas,,,and take the time to put them to the powers to be.

Obviously, things won't change over nite, and everyone has their own opinion on how to fix things. But the one thing that I have found not just in R/C cars,,,but Motocross, and most recently, BMX racing (and I was 40 years old when I started that). Every one has opinions, everyone has good and bad ideas, but very few people will take the time to share them with the powers to be. And, for what it's worth,,,it would seem that at least on Company Rep is willing to get involved, I give Adrian from Schumacher that.

This forum is a start,,,but email the manufacturers, and even ROAR, I know that sometimes that seems like it falls on deaf ears. But ROAR is it, if people will just bombard them with ideas,,,sooner or later someone will hear, then maybe listen.

And even Better, go out and try some of these ideas yourselves. Personally I feel that the future holds really cool things with LiPo batteries, brushless motors, I am really looking forward to the Spektrum 2.4 ghz module and rx.

Hey while i'm at it,,,How bout all you out there anywhere close to So Cal,,,stopping by 4 Fun Hobbies and Raceway. It's my local track...It's a first class facility, A REAL DRIVERS TRACK...super technical. website is

www.4funhobbiesandraceway.com

It's about an hour to hour and a half north of LA/Orange County on the way to Vegas...I guarantee it's worth your time
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