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Old 12-29-2004, 04:07 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally posted by DerekB
There is just as big of production tolerance issues in brusless. The motors are still hand wound and have magnets.
That is a good point but I was really reffering to the machine wound motors used in Stock and 19t classes. Modified I belive is a little better in consistancy of motors due to handwinding.

Mod is Mod. Its pretty much run what ya brung at a club level and 10t limits at ROAR events....I can't really comment about limiting Mod.

The "spec'd" classes (Stock & 19) I belive could do with brushless motors. Instead of having to buy 6 motors, cutting comms every run and brushes every day because everyone else does why don't we get a brushless system, program it to stock mode and run with everyone else. Everyone has the same motor!
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:10 PM   #212
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I can predict the future and I'm going to agree with what Turbo Joe says in his next post

Last edited by BlackKat; 12-29-2004 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:15 PM   #213
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From what I've seen, brushless setups (ala Novak) are driven/controlled by the speed control far more than a brushed motor. There may be some variance in windings, but if the ESC says it goes to "X" rpm...that's all it gets. It the ESC says it accellerates at "X" rpm/second...that's all it gets.

I think a lot of these motor issues would be solved if some of the more hardcore guys would just grow up a little and give the brushless stuff a try instead of being afraid of it. You can run them until the tires fall off the car...and they're ALWAYS the same...pack to pack. It's like having a more powerful, maintenance-free Mabuchi.

You could then run 4-cell Novice...or 6-cell with a less powerful motor (ie 4300 Novak) , 5, 6, 7...whatever suited you. The ESC manufacturers can and in Novak's case -- do -- have easily teched limited modes ("Is the blue light on?") and I'm sure they could make others if needed.

Never had a brushless motor send a car into a wall because of a glitch like those POS Monsters.

I think I might try the 4-cell thing out. I know that 1:1 scale oval racers will kill to get a 100# weight break, because they can corner faster...even if it takes running a 20% smaller motor or a head that flows 40% less. 2 cells seems like more than 100# in scale.
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:40 PM   #214
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Originally posted by John Tag Greg, Is that why you forget your name so often those days of glueing your own tires Ya going Sunday to HC Mario
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Back on topic: Would running brushless solve all of the proposed delemas in this thread?
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:44 PM   #215
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no, just some. There will always be someone out there with better batteries. Only when all batteries are done identical, then brushless will be king.
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:45 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Joe
From what I've seen, brushless setups (ala Novak) are driven/controlled by the speed control far more than a brushed motor. There may be some variance in windings, but if the ESC says it goes to "X" rpm...that's all it gets. It the ESC says it accellerates at "X" rpm/second...that's all it gets.

I think a lot of these motor issues would be solved if some of the more hardcore guys would just grow up a little and give the brushless stuff a try instead of being afraid of it. You can run them until the tires fall off the car...and they're ALWAYS the same...pack to pack. It's like having a more powerful, maintenance-free Mabuchi.

You could then run 4-cell Novice...or 6-cell with a less powerful motor (ie 4300 Novak) , 5, 6, 7...whatever suited you. The ESC manufacturers can and in Novak's case -- do -- have easily teched limited modes ("Is the blue light on?") and I'm sure they could make others if needed.

Never had a brushless motor send a car into a wall because of a glitch like those POS Monsters.

I think I might try the 4-cell thing out. I know that 1:1 scale oval racers will kill to get a 100# weight break, because they can corner faster...even if it takes running a 20% smaller motor or a head that flows 40% less. 2 cells seems like more than 100# in scale.


What scares me is that it will change from 'motor of the month to speed control of the month !'
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:47 PM   #217
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Default get your high temp undies on

It was brought out earlier that there will still be problems with brushless... over temp on the mag will kill it, the mag could shatter, the windings could over heat, fragments could short out the windings, the bearings could open a worm hole and suck your whole car through it...
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:51 PM   #218
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I'll actually try brushless before going to 4 cell! I hate the idea of not tunnig the motor , but I rather attain the same punch and speed without dumping 2 cells!
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Old 12-29-2004, 05:14 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Sharpe
Back on topic: Would running brushless solve all of the proposed delemas in this thread?
Of course it would not solve all rc's problems but it would sure solve a lot.

I think they should have an unlimited BL class. Some of the new battery and motors out there can propel cars above 50 mph. This way no one would be able to control a car at full throttle on most tracks and because of this it would be driver skill and set-up skill that would win. not better batteries and motors.
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Old 12-29-2004, 05:26 PM   #220
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Default Re: get your high temp undies on

The Novak...and I assume the Reedy have temp sensors. Really...they're quite idiot-proof and reliable.

As far at the "ESC of the month" deal goes...either they conform or they don't. As long as they conform to the rules...you can always try to buy your way up...nothing different, just that the benefits will be much less -- assuming that all the ESC's will be built to conform to certain standards...and assuming that the manufacturers build them to meet the rules and don't leave anythng on the table.

FWIW -- I'm advocating this for "stock", 19t or other spec-oriented classes...I don't know jack about anything else. I just wish I was allowed to use my 4300 in stock class. It's the most reliable piece of electronics I have. It's a shame that it's relegated to "practice-only"...especially when it's no faster than a well-tuned monster. I get passed by them all the time.

OC Circuit allows them in stock. I never get smoked, but I never get smoked...and I get to have a good time playing with my car and driving, instead of jacking around with POS Trinity motors all day.


Quote:
Originally posted by timmay70
It was brought out earlier that there will still be problems with brushless... over temp on the mag will kill it, the mag could shatter, the windings could over heat, fragments could short out the windings, the bearings could open a worm hole and suck your whole car through it...
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Old 12-29-2004, 05:56 PM   #221
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Default Is all of this going to be for not...

You industry guys out there,,,How long before the LiPo batteries become a reality in R/C Racing? I'm sure Schumacher has to be working on a chassis for it already. This has to be something that is going to require a whole new design and thought.

And to those who say racing is expensive...Yeah you're right,,,and if gets too expensive, It'll go BYE BYE. R/C car raing is a HOBBY. It's only a profession for a very few of the elite in the racing side and not to many more in the industry side. The current economy has already put a big bite into the R/C car racing scene. If it's not already expensive enough,,,add the fact that just getting to the races is now twice as expensive. The industry has to realize, this is a HOBBY,,,not a neccessity of life. I hear it almost daily at the track. Guys selling their stuff because they've got a kid on the way, expenses went up and not enough money to race, or have to work more and longer so no time to race. I'm not sure how many So Cal people are reading this,,,or remember back in the 80's and early 90's,,,when people just lost interest in the industry or hobby. At one time there was so many tracks in So Cal you could almost race everyday of the week and not race the same track. The they disappeared. TQ Hobbies (long Beach), Hobby Bench (glendora) Perris Hill Park ( San Bernardino), Warren Reeds (Riverside), Riverside Indoor Carpet) Ranch Pit Shop (Pomona), Desert Hobbies and Raceway (Mine, Hesperia), Outlaw RC (Highland), Corona...

And right now, I hear that there may be a couple of SoCal tracks in trouble now.

It's not about putting limits on speed, it's about putting limits on COSTS.

4 cell 1/12 scale used to be for Carpet, technology caught up, they're faster now than ever,

todays 6 cell mod off road is as fast as yesterdays 7 cell mod, technology caught up, they're faster and run twice as long

take a look at Indy Cars,,,Indy league doesn't run Turbos and are or were 100 hp down from a turbo engine,,,technology caught up quickly, they're still running as fast and still breaking lap records.


Did grooved or treaded tires slow down F1...No...They found away around it.

Take 100 or even 200 HP away from Nascar or Indy or F1 and would anyone really notice?

600cc sportbikes are now as fast and quick as most 750cc bikes, but alot lighter, less expensive and because they sell 3 to 1 over 750cc bikes the price has stayed relatively unchanged in comparison to their constant upping of technology.

Nobody wanted to ride or race 4 strokes in motocross or supercross, because they were to slow, 2 heavy and...
well, because of the EPA and such, look at 4 strokes just a couple years later.

Companies like Losi, Associated, Hpi and others could make a toaster competitive if they wanted to. Touring car Racing is the perfect example of this. touring cars started of as nothing more than remote controlled scale models...Now look.


I'm sure that between the Car, Battery and Electronics manufacturers they would come up with a way for 4 cell brushless R/C cars to be just as fast and quick as they are now. Those of you who raced back in the 80's and 90's can attest to this.
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Old 12-29-2004, 06:05 PM   #222
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Default One more thought

From what I have heard, and I don't know how much is really real,,,but I've heard that SOON,,,the LiPo batteries and new generation of brushless motors will be able to run 30-45 and even 60 minutes on a single charge.

Could this replace nitro cars? Even at 30 minutes per charge it would only require 1 battery change in a 1 hour main. Thats what, 5-8 stops less than nitro.
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Old 12-29-2004, 06:37 PM   #223
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Default RC too Expensive??

I have been hearing a lot of people complaining about the cost of RC being to expensive. Not to be harsh, but I feel these complaints are total nonsense. Why is it total nonsense in my opinion? Well because no one was forced to get into this hobby. If you cannot afford it, why start? Depending on how competitive you want to be, RC is down right cheap. You can race around the street, or you can even mess around a local track and still have loads of fun, have decent equipment and get away with spending little money...just don't expect to play witth the big dogs. Sure if you want to race with the fast guys, it is expensive but you are not forced too...it's your decision If you are one of those that say but I love the hobby and I want to race but it's not fair that I cannot afford it, I say to you that I love old cars (yes even more than RC) but I don't even try to collect them because I cannot afford them...hell I cannot even afford one car let alone several!

I hear a lot of guys at my track complain that RC is too expensive for them and that they wish the stuff was cheaper and not evolving as quickly as it is but these are the same guys that go and spend $200-$300.00 every weekend in a bar!!

Once again, if the hobby is too expensive just either walk away and find something more to your taste or just spend less money and not be as competitive. You don't have to be the best or spend a ton of cash to have fun in rc.

A spec classs may help the money issue for those than cannot afford it or who do not wish to spend a lot of money.

And regardless of rules or stipulations set on any type of competitve sport/hobby (NASCAR, CART, Football, or even RC Racing), it's the money the often seperates the men from the boys. Sure 6 cells of today are faster than the 7 cells of yesterday, sure Indy cars are as fast today with out turbo's as there were with them, but does that really mean that it is cheaper to run an Indy car today becuase the cars have no turbo? No, I think not...The teams had to spend a butt load more of cash in R&D to make up for the loss of a turbo to they could run as fast. Same thing with restrictor plates in NASCAR. This put limits on the motor horsepower for certain tracks and tried to make the racing more competitive, but I know for a fact that it costs the NASCAR teams more money in R&D every year to work around the restrictor plate limitations to try and make up for that lost speed.
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Old 12-29-2004, 06:58 PM   #224
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Default in answer..

I heard that same attitude when Flew R/C helicopters...If you can't afford it don't do it. It's the money that seperates the men from the boys...

Well,,,it took the entire R/C helicopter hobby almost completely disappearing to change that attitude. They were a bunch of elitists. And money did seperate the men from the boys,,,Alot of crashed heli's, broken $200 blade sets, and alot of heli's hanging in the garage getting no flight time. Now look at R/C Heli's,,,someone figured it out....There's R/C heli ads in car mags...The elitest attitude went away. It's one of the fastest growing segments of R/C Hobbies. Electric Airplanes and Electric Personal Sized Heli's...

And as a former owner of a hobby shop and track,,,I can tell you, that attitude really doesn't work...because, Like I said, this is a hobby,,,no one needs to do it, and they won't.

And as for real racing dollars. If you match yesterdays dollar to todays and make it equal value,,,yes it is less expensive. But I guess with the if you can't afford it, get out attitude, the nascar guys from 10th place on down really don't need to race because they can't afford to spend enough to win...Oh wait,,,that sounds like F1, can't fill the grid...or Moto GP,,,got ten open spot on the grid...Oh wait,,,sounds like a lot of tracks around here,,,because racer turn out is awefully low...

What if your local hobby shop raised all of their prices to make what they really needed to survive. The told you, if you can't afford it, quit,,find another hobby.

That's the attitude that keeps this Hobby from being BIG,,,,like it is in other countries....
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Old 12-29-2004, 07:09 PM   #225
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Koabich and Blow: You have valid points but I disagree SEVERELY with ALL of them

If I didn't have R/C to occupy my time I'd admit, I'd probably be on drugs or dead

I have several reasons I complain about RC getting too expensive

A) I see no need for it to be as expensive as it is. If we make a few changes then it will be less expensive and equally as good and fun as it was before. There is no reason R/C HAS to be expensive so why not make it cheaper

B) It honestly gets ridiculous when SPORTSMAN races are decided on who has the best equipment. That is just BS

May I add a word to your last line Blow...

That's the POOR attitude that keeps this Hobby from being BIG
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