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Old 12-29-2004, 11:26 AM   #196
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4-cell will not make things cheaper in the long run. Temporarily it will until the motor makes go to lower turn motors and then we will be right back where we started from, having to rebuild every other run.

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In our R/C cars I want to reduce the voltage to reduce wattage output in order to conserve the motors. As I said the reduction in overall power is mitigated by the reduction in weight.
So a 7.5% change in weight is going to make up for a 33% change in voltage???



It isn't voltage that kills, it is the current. Current through resistance makes heat. Heat melts brushes and comms.

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4 cell will reduce amp draw and heat in all classes of motors. Mod, 19T and stocks will last longer. Right now 19T and Stock racers running at hard core tracks have to cut are re brush every run. On 4 cell they wont have to do this.
Just wait till the design of the motors are changed to compensate to for the new voltage. This is only true if we keep the exact same motors that we have today and run them on 4 cells. If 4-cell were to catch on, I am sure the motors would then change as well.

RESULT: Nothing except more dependance on voltage, lower resistance batteries so that we can draw more current. So higher capacticity, lower resistance, = more weight per cell and we end up right where we started.

Have any of you ever tried measuring a 1400 scr pack and compared it to a 3300?? I have and the results are fairly amazing.
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Old 12-29-2004, 11:38 AM   #197
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Quote:
Originally posted by DerekB
Racing is expensive, there's no way to make competitive racing "cheaper" it just doesn't work. Pan car and 1/12 are less technical "right now" since it's not the foucs of racing. I remember TCs when they didn't have 1,234.1 different adjustments. There will always be a money advantage in racing...just the way it works, but that it countered with driving.
Just for the record...I disagree with 4-cell racing. We shouldn't dumb down the cars any. The fun in some things comes in form of a challenge

Anyway...On to the passage I quoted. Racing is getting to the point where money and mediocre driving is beginning to surpass good driving and mediocre money. I think thats bull because after all this is DRIVNG. If I didn't want driving skill and wanted some expensive models I woulda stayed with my previous hobby. Maybe four cell would exploit driver skill more, I don't know but I'm in for whatever exploits DRIVER SKILL OVER EQUIPMENT

-Dan
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Old 12-29-2004, 12:10 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlackKat
Just for the record...I disagree with 4-cell racing. We shouldn't dumb down the cars any. The fun in some things comes in form of a challenge

Anyway...On to the passage I quoted. Racing is getting to the point where money and mediocre driving is beginning to surpass good driving and mediocre money. I think thats bull because after all this is DRIVNG. If I didn't want driving skill and wanted some expensive models I woulda stayed with my previous hobby. Maybe four cell would exploit driver skill more, I don't know but I'm in for whatever exploits DRIVER SKILL OVER EQUIPMENT

-Dan
if you want to weed out drivers that cant drive then make tracks that are more technical in nature!

but yikes! then they will bitch its to hard! Technical tracks seem to have less wear on the motors and tires because your not pushing the car as hard.
Four cell is going to magnify the problems with batteries further. You think its hard to buy low IR batteries now wait to see what happens then.

The correct thing and the happy medium is try cells with a higher Ir so that we are running with 1.14 voltage instead of the batts we run now. We didnt have these melt downs everyone is claiming back when we were running 2400's and 3000 mah batteries!
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Old 12-29-2004, 01:56 PM   #199
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Default 4 Cell Sedan Racing

Here's one average every day club racers take on this subject...

I'm all for something that would put some sort of cost control to this hobby.

But I don't think that cutting back from 6 cells to 4 cells is going to make any difference in the long run. My reasons:

1. right now it's 3000, 3300, 3600's and what's around the corner.

2. the cost will eventually rise back to what a 6 cell costs now. as stated somewhere in this thread, we quit racing 7 cells and went 6 only, and a 6 cell cost what a 7 did before,,,I'll be it because of technology,,,but it's still money.

3. are the maufacturers willing to take a loss in revenue,,,I doubt it.

4. what happens when LiPo technology becomes mainstream...70% of most racers existing hardware and technology is now outdated. How many of us still have Tekin, Victor and others chargers that are now totally useless for anything other than low end RTR stuff.

5. yeah, maybe because of less weight,, there may be less wear and tear on the cars and tires,,,but in the land of BUSINESS supply and demand,,,does that mean prices will go up for those things less used.

A. If manufacturers are selling less of something, the price is going to go up to cover costs. Supply and Demand...

6. A lighter car translates to a faster car. Horse power to weight ratio. As stated, those who have tried 4 cell stated that the cars are almost as fast, just a little less of the bottom and just about the same run time. But how are the manufacturers going to co-operate or compensate. Lighter weight parts, because they don't need to be a strong, or...

7. Unless someone does away with the CURRENT sanctioning body: ROAR. nothing is going to change.

8. And more....

Limitations are great,,,but lets start with a clean slate and set up real rules and guidelines. And because we know there is always going to be advancements,,,make the rules good for lets say 3 years. No acceptions.

1. Don't just limit the number of cells. Limit the capacities.
ex. 3300 MiAh, 1.2 volt 4 cells. Period.

We can already run longer run times than the races are.

2. Limit motor technology. if a manufacturer only has to make 4 different kinds of motors, then the cost will come down. For example, take a look at Trinity's motor list...At a recent practice session at my local track,,I seen a couple of regular racers, not pros, not even really fast guys with probably 15 motors each...All stock or 19T. I asked why so many,,,I was told that that 's just what they needed, because some were better than others, some were just bad out of the package,,,

3. Go Brushless. Although the initial cost is higher. the end cost is astronomically less. No more brushes, no more comm cutters, no more motor drops, NO MORE. Less time screwing with motors and more time on the track...

Set a time frame for this to take place. Just like MotoGP and 4 strokes. No more brushed motors by 2006. Period. The technology is already there.

3. Limit tire costs.

Make rims intentionally and easily re-useable. That is an unexcuseable cost. I find it hard to believe that a company such as LOSI or Associated that comes up with these super High Tech, New patent technology cars and parts, can't come up with a light weight, re-useable wheel.



I think 4 cells is a good start, but unless you set limitations on that, it will make no difference.

Just a thought from an everyday average racer.

I've been in R/C cars in 1983 where I began racing 1/12 scale at Peris Hill Park with Outlaw R/C. In the late 80's my wife and I owned and operated a Hobby shop and Off-Road track. I've been a factory supported and sponsored R/C car racer (off and on road), Factory sponsored BMX Racer and have raced MX/SX and karts. So I know a little about racing and it's costs from a racers stand point and a business stand point.

A little more opionion for the argument here....
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Old 12-29-2004, 02:22 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedxl
if you want to weed out drivers that cant drive then make tracks that are more technical in nature!

but yikes! then they will bitch its to hard! Technical tracks seem to have less wear on the motors and tires because your not pushing the car as hard.
Four cell is going to magnify the problems with batteries further. You think its hard to buy low IR batteries now wait to see what happens then.

The correct thing and the happy medium is try cells with a higher Ir so that we are running with 1.14 voltage instead of the batts we run now. We didnt have these melt downs everyone is claiming back when we were running 2400's and 3000 mah batteries!
IF everyone wasn't such a f"ing b"ch then maybe racing could be cheaper. If you want speed, drag race. If you wanna drive lets get some technical crap going on

I see your point with the higher IR and drivers in Japan are implementing this with the Sanyo 3600 because they have to last 8 minutes & still be at a decent pace

I don't think we should LIMIT speed. I think we should FIX speed. Brushless is the WAY TO GO. These brushed motors seem to be big varibles in terms of speed. With Brushless there is a fixed RPM and its the same on all of them. Buy 10 brushed motors and they are all different. Buy 10 Brushless and I doubt there is much difference
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Old 12-29-2004, 02:25 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally posted by TimPotter
Not to get off topic here, but can some explain ( technically) why rubber tires are harder on carpet the foams. I would think it was the other way around, as Foams grip more.

Thanks
Hey Tim: Rubber tires are harder on carpet because they slide, and then GRAB the carpet, so when they do finally hook up they place a great side load on the carpet, and it peels fiber. I've seen it first hand, and I think it's fine that Scotty and others have not noticed increased wear due to this, but I've seen tracks host major events that have had HOLES worn in the sweeper from one weekend of major level carpet racing.

Maybe the brand new rubber backed carpet wears better against the onslaught of rubber tires.
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Old 12-29-2004, 02:35 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally posted by CypressMidWest
I've seen tracks host major events that have had HOLES worn in the sweeper from one weekend of major level carpet racing.
Yup...me too...the 2000 Carpet nats. The carpet was run rolled out on top of a smooth gym floor and it moved/stretched all over the place. It was also 3 years old by the time we ran the 2000 Nats.

Here's another race where the carpet wore out...the Snowbird's this year...and it a foam only race
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Old 12-29-2004, 02:40 PM   #203
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Default Re: 4 Cell Sedan Racing

Quote:
Originally posted by blownawayig Make rims intentionally and easily re-useable. That is an unexcuseable cost. I find it hard to believe that a company such as LOSI or Associated that comes up with these super High Tech, New patent technology cars and parts, can't come up with a light weight, re-useable wheel.....
Does anyone besides me and him remember buying replacement foam tires and gluing them on used rims? Talk about inexpensive, although time consuming with harmfull vapors everywhere!

Quote:
Originally posted by JKA
That said, I'd still prefer foam tires because they really are less expensive. The only way rubber tires can be comparably priced is if there is a spec tire that must be used (ie. cs27).
Sadly, you're right. The only way to ensure you're fast with rubber tires, on asphalt, is to run a new set nearly every run. I loved the drifty feeling of rubber tire TC on asphalt. But then again, foam tire truers are expensive. Maybe that's the price equillizer in this debate????

Quote:
Originally posted by DerekB
Racing is expensive, there's no way to make competitive racing "cheaper" it just doesn't work.
So true! Instead of this 20 year old (litterally!) debate, lets just make the racing longer to extend the fun. Yes, the motors will get hotter, the brushes will wear out faster. However, the laps-per/brush will not suffer, only the runs-per/brush will decrease. Get what I'm saying?

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackKat
... I'm in for whatever exploits DRIVER SKILL OVER EQUIPMENT -Dan
I think longer racing will provide that. More strategy, less sprint race style motor setups, hopefully less impatients on the drivers stand.

At first I was all for this 4-cell concept. After hearing some of the detractors on here and considering their input, I'll still try it during practice this weekend, but this reeks (smells) of regression!
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Old 12-29-2004, 02:43 PM   #204
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Greg, Is that why you forget your name so often those days of glueing your own tires


Ya going Sunday to HC Mario
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Old 12-29-2004, 02:49 PM   #205
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No No Tag his name is Wolfgang !
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Old 12-29-2004, 02:52 PM   #206
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I want to thank everyone for your opinions. There are a lot of good points on both sides of the argument here.
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Old 12-29-2004, 03:09 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally posted by AdrianM
Yup...me too...the 2000 Carpet nats. The carpet was run rolled out on top of a smooth gym floor and it moved/stretched all over the place. It was also 3 years old by the time we ran the 2000 Nats.

Here's another race where the carpet wore out...the Snowbird's this year...and it a foam only race
Snowbird's couldn't last the entire week on its' carpet regardless of what tires they run. That's a mileage issue. Between Oval, which is ridiculously hard on the carpet, and the fact that there are cars on the surface of the track 24 hours a day for like 10 days, it's like running three seasons at a club track. I expect the Snoebirds' carpet to be UNUSABLE at the end of the weekend.

I do know that we got three years out of the carpet at the track I used to race on, and would have easily gotten another had we not been forced to shut down, and we were foam only. It also depends on the traction compound used on the track. Paragon tracks generally tend to have more carpet life than "odorless tracks" in my experience. I could be wrong though. I've only been doing this for 17 years.

I feel what you're saying Adrian about rubber tires, and handout tires level the playing field somewhat, but only if they're the RIGHT tire for the track. I'm personally not content with the " It's the same for everyone" BS. I would have raised hell if I were at the Mod Off-Road Nats this year and had to run tires that wouldn't last a whole run.

Handout tires also raise the cost of race entries to what I feel is an obscene amount for the "club Racer", and I really think it hurts attendance.
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Old 12-29-2004, 03:21 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlackKat
IF everyone wasn't such a f"ing b"ch then maybe racing could be cheaper. If you want speed, drag race. If you wanna drive lets get some technical crap going on

I see your point with the higher IR and drivers in Japan are implementing this with the Sanyo 3600 because they have to last 8 minutes & still be at a decent pace

I don't think we should LIMIT speed. I think we should FIX speed. Brushless is the WAY TO GO. These brushed motors seem to be big varibles in terms of speed. With Brushless there is a fixed RPM and its the same on all of them. Buy 10 brushed motors and they are all different. Buy 10 Brushless and I doubt there is much difference

There is just as big of production tolerance issues in brusless. The motors are still hand wound and have magnets.
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Old 12-29-2004, 03:34 PM   #209
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errr......

I though V=IR, I=V/R
so if we want more run time(I)... we still need a lesser R,
if we keep the V the same. the manufacture can improve what they are doing still.... improve parts that break for our car.

technology will always move foward... get over it.
and racing do cost money.... in any racing.

~ming
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:01 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally posted by aoizip
errr......

I though V=IR, I=V/R
so if we want more run time(I)... we still need a lesser R,
if we keep the V the same. the manufacture can improve what they are doing still.... improve parts that break for our car.

technology will always move foward... get over it.
and racing do cost money.... in any racing.

~ming
The "R" is not constant in an elctric motor.... The more load you have the more resistance you have.... So dropping to 4 cells and gearing up 3 teeth you're pretty much dropping the voltage but increasin g the load... In Oval you only have that increased load once.... In On road you have it at every corner....

How about we all start petitioning ROAR to allow 2WD pan cars to run in the TC class... Seems as though 1/10 scale pan chassis on road is non existant... Funny thing, AE has a 1/10th scale pan touring chassis... Do they know something we don't???
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