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Old 12-29-2004, 09:18 AM   #181
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How about we throw another log into the fire.....

1/10 TC 2wd Pan chassis??? Light weight, simplicity.... Let's face it, TC's aren't the easiest vehicles to get dialed in correctly... One of the attractions to 1/12th is in their simplicity.....

As for Off road and new tire compounds... I've been racing on and off since the 80's... When I raced off road seriously, we used Dirt tires... Off road tracks resemble concrete more than dirt these days... I see guys who race at my local off road track talk about using SLICKS!!!

I don't believe that 4 cells with our current motor configuration is the answer, unless you want to go to a pan chassis... Unfortunately, I'm not an electrical engineer, I studied mechanical and aerospace... But my wife is a Cooper union graduate in electrical engineering.... We were discussing the Voltage-resistance-current debate.... Unfortunately electromagnets do not have a fixed IR.... Yes, with a drop in Voltage you have a corresponding drop in Current... But as the brushless guys are figuring out due to the varying IR in the winds, a raise in voltage will result in less current needed to make the motor go....

7 cell off road years ago was overkill for the technology back then....
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Old 12-29-2004, 09:22 AM   #182
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Well we do need to try to make racing a little cheaper if possible. Why is because R/C is a hobby and hobbies are done with the excess money we all have after paying those nasty bills. It is a hobby and not a neccessity so if it gets too costly many people will find other hobbies to spend their hard earned extra cash they have on things that their dollars will get them more.

Alot of companies are producing better products at cheaper costs than ever before and it really helps the consumer out plus they sell more volumes and still make money. Selling more though means more people into our hobby which is always a great thing as it is fun for all.
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Old 12-29-2004, 09:22 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
I disagree with this premise, but that's just my opinion I guess...

Adrian is got the right ideas, and history is on his side. Again, just look at Oval and at 1/12th scale. Both classes could have been considered to be money/dyno classes in the mid-90's, and both classes suffered for it. The reason why sedans took off was the scale realism and the "relative" inexpensive nature of the class. Well the performance enthusiasts got ahole of sedan racing, and now it's the most expensive class to run. The thing that is funny to me is how some people will blast this before even trying it or seeing it in action. going to 4 cells single handedly saved both 1/12th scale on road and 1/10th scale oval. Oval still hasn't quite recovered to where it used to be, but it is a heckofalot stronger than where it was, on the brink of exstinction.
Gary, I've done both foam and rubber racing, and beleive me Foam is cheaper. If Josh Cyrul says that foam is less expensive as well, I'm even more inclined to believe it. Plus Rubber tires are way harder on the carpet than foams are, so it's actually cheaper for the track owners as well.

Moving to four-cell didn't save 12thscale, all the seriously competitive racing done in this country has been 4-cell for years, with the exception of the still sparsely attended ROAR Asphalt Nationals. What has brought 12th scale back, quite simply, is the complicated, frail and maintenance intensive touring cars. You wouldn't believe the number of newbies I've seen make the jump to 12th scale from touring car, based simply on the fact that the cars are easier to maintain, and FAR LESS FRAGILE.

And make no mistake Oval is STILL on the Brink of extinction. It will never reach the level it was at in the late 80's and early 90's ever again. It was the most expensive class to race then, and it still is now.

Moving to four-cell is a mistake in my eyes, for a reason previously mentioned in this thread. Batteries!! Moving to four-cell will place an even greater emphasis on VOLTAGE. The guys who can find the best cells will have an even greater advantage than they have now. It will also place a greater emphasis on motor tuning in stock, and will make mod motor tuning a whole lot easier.

Don't think you're not going to cut comms after every few runs running four-cell, and don't believe for an instant that you're gonna start getting ten or twenty runs outta a set of brushes. It doesn't happen in 12th scale, so why would a car that weighs nearly twice as much be easier on motors?

Most of the tracks I've raced on are plenty big enough for 6-cell, and 4-cell TC would be boring. Voltage is what gives the car the snap from corner to corner, like seaball said, you drop to 4 cells and you'll never have to lift. WHAT FUN IS THAT?
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:12 AM   #184
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JKA - Be sure to gear up 3 teeth to start.
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:14 AM   #185
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You can't re-write the laws of physics just because a manufacturer suggests 4 cells, anymore than we should rewrite the dictionary because our president can't pronounce the word nuclear.
Amp draw is primarily dependent on load. 4 cells means lower voltage/rpm, speed. To compensate you go down in winds and gear taller. This results in MORE not less, amp draw. As I stated before, you will put far greater importance on the battery numbers (higher cost NOT less) and on the motor. When the battery becomes more important, who benefits? Those who have access to the cream of the crop & don't have to pay the high price!
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:14 AM   #186
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Not to get off topic here, but can some explain ( technically) why rubber tires are harder on carpet the foams. I would think it was the other way around, as Foams grip more.

Thanks
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:30 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally posted by TimPotter
Not to get off topic here, but can some explain ( technically) why rubber tires are harder on carpet the foams. I would think it was the other way around, as Foams grip more.
Thanks
In my opinion there a a few ways to look at it... some leading to Rubber tires being most damaging others to foam.

I would be inclined to think that Foam tires using traction compounds such as paragon would be more damaging to the carpet since the compound is actually 'run in' to the carpet.

I honestly doubt either tire type is SIGNIFICANTLY more harmful to the carpet than the other.

That said, I'd still prefer foam tires because they really are less expensive. The only way rubber tires can be comparably priced is if there is a spec tire that must be used (ie. cs27). This makes the rubber tires more comparably priced to foams since you don't have to bother with different rubber and insert compounds and wasted time gluing. Foam tires are much less expensive than they used to be due to hot competition among foam tire manufacturers. A full set of Jaco's can be had for $27.
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:34 AM   #188
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Dunland - In theory you are correct...in practice you can never get the exact same wattage output on 4 cells that you can with 6 cells no matter how wild the motors are or how high you gear it.

Tim - There is no difference in carpet wear due to tires. Scotty Ernst the most respected guy in our indurstry (other than Mike Reedy) and a long time carpet track owner has said this several time before. As have the owners of Stockton R/C Raceway, Rain City Raceway and a lot more.
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:34 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally posted by AdrianM
JKA - Be sure to gear up 3 teeth to start.
Sure thing. I'm pretty stoked to try this out.
It should probably be noted that I'll be testing on a short mixed technical carpet track.
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:41 AM   #190
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The key is to gear up until you see no improvement in lap times then run the last ratio than netted an improvement.
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:45 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally posted by JKA
The "fast" guys are always going to be fast. They are fast because they spend the most time trying to be fast or know the most tricks to get fast or lets face it... they are more talented than the majority of us.

To slow down cars as an attempt to "level the playing field" and thus make racing funner is counterproductive. Its just like Spec racing. Everyone pretends that Spec racing is more fair... especially to beginners and budget racers. This is completely wrong. When there are limitations placed on the main "go fast" components of racing the person that is more skilled and pays more attention to detail will have an advantage... just like normal racing but actually its more blatant with spec racing. Also the deep wallets can purchase large numbers of spec motors and batteries to hand pick the best few and then sell off the rest. Thus giving them an advantage of better equipment.

The whole "level the playing field" by limiting technology has been proven unsuccessful.

I can't wait to run my Mod TC tonight with 4 cells so that I can actually give a first hand opinion.
Very good points.

Also, since cars, batteries, radios, chargers and every single item has advanced over the years why is it the motor design that's the last to get the boot? It's obvious that the motor needs to be redesigned to handle the current technology and upcoming (LIPO!!!)

Brushless and new brush designs and/or motor designs are needed.

Racing is expensive, there's no way to make competitive racing "cheaper" it just doesn't work. Pan car and 1/12 are less technical "right now" since it's not the foucs of racing. I remember TCs when they didn't have 1,234.1 different adjustments. There will always be a money advantage in racing...just the way it works, but that it countered with driving.

all this bickering and electric off-road eliminates most of the complaints. You guys shoud get out and run some off-road. Less (or more realistic grip) is way easier on the motors.
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:53 AM   #192
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all this bickering and electric off-road eliminates most of the complaints. You guys shoud get out and run some off-road. Less (or more realistic grip) is way easier on the motors.
When Off road goes back to being raced on dirt, not on a surface resembling concrete I'll go back....

Our Motors are way outdated as far as brushed motors go.... I'm not even comparing them to brushless....

Even switching to 4 cell TC's, it's not going to make a difference... I keep hearing to go up 3 teeth, think it's not going to require MORE current to get that car moving from a dead stop?

I have a eagletree data recorder, I think it's time to do some testing with real numbers in the real world.... If anyone else has one please do the same....
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Old 12-29-2004, 10:58 AM   #193
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Our offroad track runs slicks as it is a clay track and you could run foams on it if they let you!!!!!!!! I need to put longer shocks on my touring car so I can run offroad touring!!!!!!!! No money savings here as the foams wear out in 2 to 3 weeks but the slick is still good. Plus with that much traction parts wear very hard and when you flip they really loosen up the parts.
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Old 12-29-2004, 11:15 AM   #194
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The motor would probably like more current, but there will be no way of providing it as the reduced number of cells simply won't be able to do it.

I'm not saying i am totally in favour of it - i'm a speed freak if truth be told, but i am fairly sure (without even trying it) that ultimately Adrian is correct in that 4 cell will lead to less heat - and hence less wear etc.

I probably shall try it in the near future just to see how it is.
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Old 12-29-2004, 11:18 AM   #195
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PREACH ON BROTHER WYD!!!!! the only place that was harder on my buggy was the Tiltyard. And that was just because of the size you could carry great speed everywhere. I know 2 of the guys running AE snapped chassis in half at the nats when they were there.
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