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Old 12-28-2004, 11:43 PM   #166
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That is exactly what I am hoping for. Plus less cost due to batteries being cheaper and motors lasting longer. The fast guys will be the fast guys no matter what motor battery combo is out.
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Old 12-28-2004, 11:47 PM   #167
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Dude if they sell 4 cells and not 6, they will increase the price for for the 4 cell packs because they will sell less volume do you think they will want to loose profit.
yea cheaper at the begining watch with time!
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Old 12-28-2004, 11:47 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedxl
if your raise the Ir of any battery the run time will go up and voltage come down.
If we are tring to take voltage out of the cars because we are burning up motors it might have been a compromise for those who want to go 4 cell and those wanting six cell to stay.
Your intentions are noble, but ponder this; When was the last time you didn't take full advantage of the rules and regs in whatever class you were running? Never, right? Unless the sanctioning bodies put a minimum IR or Avg.Volt. rule in place, nobody would consciously buy slower packs. That goes against human nature. Besides, battery numbers can be shady enough. Imagine the field day matchers would have skirting that kind of rule. Furthermore, most modern batteries have IR and V numbers close to those used to melt these motors. Simply using the worst of the batches would only drop a few tenths off the total voltage. That is not close enough to 4-cell voltage to really be comparable.

FYI, I don't even agree with that guy who you're upset with. I'd rather have longer races with the same equipment currently in use. p.s.-Your avatar is funny as hell. What do you ride?
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Old 12-28-2004, 11:54 PM   #169
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greg I wasnt stating regulate the battery matchers simply look for a cell with lower voltage characteristics or have GP alter their formula again.

These new sanyos that no one likes have higher runtimes and lower voltage then the current GP's we're using.
Do a search on the net and you will find a good amount of battery companies make nimh batteries. There other stuff out there that might solve the problem!
Sorry didnt explain my self correctly
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Old 12-29-2004, 01:55 AM   #170
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Ahh, that makes more sense. Do you think the lower voltage of these other cells will be enough to prevent armature failures and extend brush life?
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Old 12-29-2004, 06:08 AM   #171
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No matter how many cells we go to, people will always burn up motors trying to get the most out of the .05 package that they can. We can go down to 4 cells, and the motors will just go down to 4 turns! People burn up GM3's all the time and it is a 27 turn motor. It is just tuned to the edge of existance. 1/12th scale cars dont burn up as many motors because they are very light and have to be geared and driven conservativly to make run time. Look at real racing. They burn up engines all the time. Same problem, they are trying to get the most out of a given package that they can.
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Old 12-29-2004, 06:42 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedxl
Yes I ran mod back at the time and the reason we were doing that was not because of voltage it was because the crappy brushes of the time. Also people didnt want to be the looser at the club level everyone wants to be faster then the next guy so ego's get in the way and instead of club racing with a 13 or 12t they rather have raced with 8 and 9t motors that what we all did. By the way matt did you race mod when it was the norm to see the wildest wind was a 12t I do ,and there wasnt the problem that they are complaining about how the scorched and melted coms are due to voltages being to high.
Yes, I have been runnin mod TC since the days of the original RS4, the one with the gearbox/belt design. I loved the days of 5 minute mod and making 2000 packs last the whole time with the 10 turns I ran. Tires lasted an entire season, brushes a month or so, and motor for about a season as well. Ah the good 'ol days
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:03 AM   #173
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seems to me that alot of ya'll are missing the ship or walking right off of it....lol

The point isn't to make it so the fast guys aren't faster, or the slow guy any faster. However there will be a percentage of fast guys that can't catch back up, and a good percentage of slow guys that all of a sudden become the fast guys (who wouldn't have at the higher speed). The point is to use what we have and make racing better. Meaning at the lower cost of 4 cell racing it will allow for more people to race, and for those people to be competetive and stay competetive longer. Alot of guys like myself can't afford to have tons of high number packs, hell in 6 years of competetive racing I have gotten really good numbers on 2 packs and the only reason I got those is because the LHS got them in on the same morning I got my income tax check.... same with motor tuning I can't afford a new set of brushes every race weekend, and I can't afford a new motor every month or so... or even traction compound, I have an old stock and I ain't getting any more cause I can't afford to buy it constantly.... this goes with all consumables... if I don't absolutely need it to make the car move I don't get it.... and what I do have to buy I make the most of it.... so throwing away a set of brushes every week just ain't gonna happen.... and I ain't gonna buy 2-2000 sets of brushes just to get .5 watts more power.... and I am not the only one at the track that feels the same.....

Now with 4 cell racing the packs cost less... afraid matchers will raise the prices?? just buy 2-6 cell packs that are very close in numbers and now ya got 3 packs...lol Besides matchers won't be selling less batteries, people will still buy the same amount of batteries, but now they will get more packs out of the purchase.

Motors last longer between rebuilds- now I won't mind throwing a good set of brushes in and doing a little tuning because any effects will last twice or 3 times as long. Of coarse I understand why you fast guys would be afraid of this.... now us budget racers can afford to have the fast stuff, and now you have to learn to tune a 4 cell motor (if you try to tune it like a 6 cell you will be SOL)`

Belts, gears, bearings, and even suspension parts last longer- Don't worry parts prices won't increase, remember the fast guys at the track who have the urge to stock up on every available part for their car... you know the guy he has 6 parts boxes and 2 are full of c-hubs (which he has never broken one)....

The cars are easier to handle- Now they weigh less, so they handle better, the slightly slower speed allow for easier driving, and with less weight to transition now the cars carry more speed thru the turns.

Of coarse change is scary, you just wonder how many of the guys on here complaining are affraid that if they changed to 4 cells they wouldn't be able to keep up, or that there would be twice as many fast guys so the top spot wouldn't be as easily acheivable.....
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:07 AM   #174
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And to anyone who thinks nitro is cheaper to be competetive and it's "more fair".... you ain't been in Nitro long enough, nitro engines aren't all created equal... and then you have the really expensive "hand massaged" engines that look just like yours but put out 2-3 times the power...... GOD NITRO SUCKS FUEL.....LOL
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:13 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally posted by IMPACTPLAYR
seems to me that alot of ya'll are missing the ship or walking right off of it....lol

The point isn't to make it so the fast guys aren't faster, or the slow guy any faster. However there will be a percentage of fast guys that can't catch back up, and a good percentage of slow guys that all of a sudden become the fast guys (who wouldn't have at the higher speed). The point is to use what we have and make racing better. Meaning at the lower cost of 4 cell racing it will allow for more people to race, and for those people to be competetive and stay competetive longer. Alot of guys like myself can't afford to have tons of high number packs, hell in 6 years of competetive racing I have gotten really good numbers on 2 packs and the only reason I got those is because the LHS got them in on the same morning I got my income tax check.... same with motor tuning I can't afford a new set of brushes every race weekend, and I can't afford a new motor every month or so... or even traction compound, I have an old stock and I ain't getting any more cause I can't afford to buy it constantly.... this goes with all consumables... if I don't absolutely need it to make the car move I don't get it.... and what I do have to buy I make the most of it.... so throwing away a set of brushes every week just ain't gonna happen.... and I ain't gonna buy 2-2000 sets of brushes just to get .5 watts more power.... and I am not the only one at the track that feels the same.....

Now with 4 cell racing the packs cost less... afraid matchers will raise the prices?? just buy 2-6 cell packs that are very close in numbers and now ya got 3 packs...lol Besides matchers won't be selling less batteries, people will still buy the same amount of batteries, but now they will get more packs out of the purchase.

Motors last longer between rebuilds- now I won't mind throwing a good set of brushes in and doing a little tuning because any effects will last twice or 3 times as long. Of coarse I understand why you fast guys would be afraid of this.... now us budget racers can afford to have the fast stuff, and now you have to learn to tune a 4 cell motor (if you try to tune it like a 6 cell you will be SOL)`

Belts, gears, bearings, and even suspension parts last longer- Don't worry parts prices won't increase, remember the fast guys at the track who have the urge to stock up on every available part for their car... you know the guy he has 6 parts boxes and 2 are full of c-hubs (which he has never broken one).... Hey you know I do this!!!!!!!!lol

The cars are easier to handle- Now they weigh less, so they handle better, the slightly slower speed allow for easier driving, and with less weight to transition now the cars carry more speed thru the turns.

Of coarse change is scary, you just wonder how many of the guys on here complaining are affraid that if they changed to 4 cells they wouldn't be able to keep up, or that there would be twice as many fast guys so the top spot wouldn't be as easily acheivable.....
Hey you know I like to stock up on parts and have a box full of them.....Yeah and not break too many either.

The 4 cell thing could work out. Pan car racing did this to save money and overall I would say that it has helped out. No matter how you look at it 4 cell racing would be alot easier on equipment and everything would last longer and thus save you money. The fast guys would still be the fast ones but now more guys might be able to afford to keep up a little better now. Just a thought as we do need to do what we can to get the racers to show up and nowadays things are not getting a cheaper.
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:27 AM   #176
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But now our batteries are 1.18v per cell versus 1.13v. Our IR's were 22 now they are 14 or lower. We have 65% more run time today, 85% more with 3700's! All of this means we can run our motors harder, faster and still make time.

One alternative is to run longer racers so guys setup their motors more conservatively. In Mod this will cause a battery war as guys will have to replace packs when they lose any run time at all. 19T and 27T racers will make time no problem but their motors will wear out even faster due to the heat and longer runs.

4 cell will reduce amp draw and heat in all classes of motors. Mod, 19T and stocks will last longer. Right now 19T and Stock racers running at hard core tracks have to cut are re brush every run. On 4 cell they wont have to do this.

kufman - We were talking about Brushless before. In planes you can never get a higher kv motor running on lower voltage to put out the same power as a lower kv on more voltage. For power output more volts is always better.

In our R/C cars I want to reduce the voltage to reduce wattage output in order to conserve the motors. As I said the reduction in overall power is mitigated by the reduction in weight.

As guys get a chance to test this over the next few weekends everyone will see that this is a valid concept.

Like I have been saying...don't knock it until you try it!
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:33 AM   #177
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Can't the motors only pull the amps the battery will give? By having less cells, won't there be less amps to give? Not that I am a fan of this idea.. It just seems that a super free drivetrain will be that much more important... better bearings, belts (if used)... There are already a few 1/12 sedans out now that run on 4 cell, why not push for this class to get going, then see how well they compete on a local level to the 6 cell cars.....
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:42 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally posted by AdrianM
But now our batteries are 1.18v per cell versus 1.13v. Our IR's were 22 now they are 14 or lower. We have 65% more run time today, 85% more with 3700's! All of this means we can run our motors harder, faster and still make time.

One alternative is to run longer racers so guys setup their motors more conservatively. In Mod this will cause a battery war as guys will have to replace packs when they lose any run time at all. 19T and 27T racers will make time no problem but their motors will wear out even faster due to the heat and longer runs.

4 cell will reduce amp draw and heat in all classes of motors. Mod, 19T and stocks will last longer. Right now 19T and Stock racers running at hard core tracks have to cut are re brush every run. On 4 cell they wont have to do this.

kufman - We were talking about Brushless before. In planes you can never get a higher kv motor running on lower voltage to put out the same power as a lower kv on more voltage. For power output more volts is always better.

In our R/C cars I want to reduce the voltage to reduce wattage output in order to conserve the motors. As I said the reduction in overall power is mitigated by the reduction in weight.

As guys get a chance to test this over the next few weekends everyone will see that this is a valid concept.

Like I have been saying...don't knock it until you try it!
I agree with you 100%. 4 cell will do nothing but make racing a little cheaper. We can still all of our same cars. The big thing is motors and especially tires will last longer. We might even get more guys running mod if was 4 cell since it would be easier on equipment more guys could afford to run it.
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:48 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally posted by IMPACTPLAYR
The point isn't to make it so the fast guys aren't faster, or the slow guy any faster. However there will be a percentage of fast guys that can't catch back up, and a good percentage of slow guys that all of a sudden become the fast guys (who wouldn't have at the higher speed). The point is to use what we have and make racing better.
The "fast" guys are always going to be fast. They are fast because they spend the most time trying to be fast or know the most tricks to get fast or lets face it... they are more talented than the majority of us.

To slow down cars as an attempt to "level the playing field" and thus make racing funner is counterproductive. Its just like Spec racing. Everyone pretends that Spec racing is more fair... especially to beginners and budget racers. This is completely wrong. When there are limitations placed on the main "go fast" components of racing the person that is more skilled and pays more attention to detail will have an advantage... just like normal racing but actually its more blatant with spec racing. Also the deep wallets can purchase large numbers of spec motors and batteries to hand pick the best few and then sell off the rest. Thus giving them an advantage of better equipment.

The whole "level the playing field" by limiting technology has been proven unsuccessful.

I can't wait to run my Mod TC tonight with 4 cells so that I can actually give a first hand opinion.
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:54 AM   #180
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lets just say this.
Less Voltage = less wear on motor and motor parts
Less wear = less $$$ spent on parts
Less $$$ spent = Happy spouces & happy wallets
If you haven't tried or seen it tried stop complaining.
I am not twisting your arm from the socket to make you conform, I am simply saying try it, if you hate it don't enter the class.

I don't enter open Mod, why because I know my limitations.
Do I practice to make myself better, yes (with Mod Motors).
I think there is room in this hobby for this class and even others, but I am not complaining because when I go to race and have to wait for hours for other classes to race. No I work on my car/go help others work on there cars/go and play practical jokes on others, (of cource in a CHRISTIAN kind of way hehehehe).
This is a HOBBY first and formost, by definition is a leisure activity for FUN.

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